What's the best?

Discussion and analysis about a full game.

Re: What's the best?

Postby Patrick Parker on Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:52 pm

white doctor was solved
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Re: What's the best?

Postby CheckersStrongplayer on Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:47 pm

it has been solved for a long time already, i remenbered that they said that it was proved to be a draw like in the year 2002 or 2003, can't remenber exactly...Anyway, how many computers did it take to run the actual Chinook that played against Tinsley?
Checkers is like being in heavens.
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Re: What's the best?

Postby AKA on Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:59 pm

Which gamesites do you play checkers, CheckersStrongPlayer?
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Re: What's the best?

Postby CheckersStrongplayer on Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:43 pm

i play mostly in pogo, but it's getting a bad reputation for many cheaters using Checker Programs to tell them which move to make, but i oftenly go to Kurnik.org However, when i go noone wants to play me because they think that i'm a rookie since i don't play that in there, why? Where do you play?
Checkers is like being in heavens.
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Postby Patrick Parker on Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:22 am

yahoo is better than pogo
i first played at pogo
atleast yahoo has the right colors
and less distraction
stick to kurnik or zone if u can
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Re: What's the best?

Postby matthewkooshad on Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:35 am

Kings is a good place on zone: http://www.draughts.info/links.php?id=2
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Re: What's the best?

Postby AKA on Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:15 am

matthewkooshad wrote:Kings is a good place on zone: http://www.draughts.info/links.php?id=2


Kings is a good place if you want to get accused of using a program by oldarch lol.

I play at kurnik checkersstrongplayer.
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Re: What's the best?

Postby CheckersStrongplayer on Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:30 am

i don't play draughts
Checkers is like being in heavens.
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Re: What's the best?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:01 am

Matthew, how did you get your avatar to be displayed ? I have problems with this and "advance smiles". Need help

Regards,

Alex
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Re: What's the best?

Postby AKA on Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:30 am

CheckersStrongplayer wrote:i don't play draughts


Kurnik has checkers and draughts.
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Re: What's the best?

Postby matthewkooshad on Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:11 am

shr wrote:Matthew, how did you get your avatar to be displayed ? I have problems with this and "advance smiles". Need help

Regards,

Alex
This is the games section of the forum. If you post this question in a better fitted section of the forum, there will more likely be someone who knows the answer (e.g. Jason).
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Re: What's the best?

Postby CheckersStrongplayer on Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:07 pm

Igor_Razumikhin wrote:
CheckersStrongplayer wrote:i don't play draughts


Kurnik has checkers and draughts.



I said that i didn't play Draughts because i don't, but i never said that i didn't know that there was Checkers in Kurnik, as i recall saying before i said that i played in Kurnik meaning checkers not draughts obviously....
Checkers is like being in heavens.
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Re: What's the best?

Postby Martin Fierz on Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:27 pm

As the author of Cake, I'm quite obviously biased too in the discussion on "which is the best" [lthough this thread has drifted a bit :-) ].

I suspect that both Cake and KingsRow are currently better as engines than Nemesis. Please note the important point as engines. I mean that if the programs have to think for themselves, then Nemesis is probably a bit weaker. However, these 3 programs hardly ever have to think for themselves when playing with their opening books and 8-piece databases, so they are probably just equivalent in playing strength, and in words that would be "unbeatable" (for Cake, that is only true with the full opening book, not the one I distribute on the Web - update coming soon though!).
The observation about Nemesis is based on some discussions we had back in 2002 in Las Vegas - we compared our programs to see how long it took them to find a specific move, and they were roughly equal. As Ed has said, Cake and KingsRow have been updated. Nemesis 2.0 exists in Murray's software chest and is also an improvement, but he never released it (Hint: not enough people bought Nemesis 1).

In my opinion, Chinook with the 8-piece database was weaker than all the 3 programs above. It's hard to prove, and one has to remember that Chinook evolved too throughout its career - the losses in the first match with Tinsley can't be held against Chinook in its final form. I have managed to find a game though where Chinook let a win slip against Ron King during its very last tournament (which it won convincingly). King was lost, but Chinook let him escape in a drawn position, King blundered again and Chinook won. Looking at that game, I can say with certainty that the top PC programs wouldn't have let that win slip. There is also a paper by Schaeffer & co where they describe some things that are going on in Chinook's evaluation function - and if that is all there is to it, then there are some important things missing.

The Chinook team had one huge problem which we don't have any more today: they were programming in a vacuum. When I work on Cake - no wait, I don't do that any more; so better: when Ed works on KingsRow, he has a sparring partner in Cake to see whether he improved something or not. Chinook was playing against humans, and the opportunities to play them were few and far between. Good testing is the most important thing in developing a program, and they simply had no readily available opponent to test against.

Ed has already mentioned it, but I'll repeat it: my database generator is a direct descendant of the Chinook database generator - they published their algorithms and I simply copied it all with some minor modifications. Ed's database generator is based on mine, and has many further improvements, but it is still a descendant of the Chinook generator. We wouldn't be where we are if it had not been for their work.

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Re: What's the best?

Postby AKA on Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:12 pm

CheckersStrongplayer wrote:
Igor_Razumikhin wrote:
CheckersStrongplayer wrote:i don't play draughts


Kurnik has checkers and draughts.



I said that i didn't play Draughts because i don't, but i never said that i didn't know that there was Checkers in Kurnik, as i recall saying before i said that i played in Kurnik meaning checkers not draughts obviously....



Don't act smart. What's your KURNIK ID ?
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Re: What's the best?

Postby CheckersStrongplayer on Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:57 pm

My screen name for Kurnik is Immaster973, i used to have this same screen name for pogo but it got blocked, why are you asking anyways, what's yours?

Martin i'm sorry that i had forgotten your name it's just that i haven't read much about programs eventually, anyways, you are saying that all that Cake's database is based on Chinook's but with minor modifications and you also said that you used the one being given away as a download in the Chinook site, now one thing that i remenber that i read before is that that version of files being given away is not as nice as the actual Chinook that played against the great players in history like King, Tinsley, etc...I'm not sure whether Murray constructed his database based on Chinook too for Nemesis...? Who came up with first construction of a program Martin, Murray, Ed, or you (Martin)??? If Murray constructed all that database on his own he must've had alot of working on this program, however i think that i read somewhere that it had played some known players and from there it built its database, so you're saying that KingsRow and Cake could beat both Chinook and Nemesis since they haven't gotten updates?
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