10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Discussion and analysis about openings.

10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:27 am

The position on diagram arize after 10-14 23-18 14-23 27-18 12-16 32-27 16-20 18-15 !? 11-18 22-15 ... In SIXTH I analyze this position and leave it as unsoundness and a probable loss.

Image
Red to move

Here is a proposed trunk line.

8-12 25-22 4-8 29-25 9-14 26-23 6-9 30-26 9-13 23-19 7-11 26-23 11-18 22-15 3-7 31-26 7-11 26-22 11-18 22-15 5-9 RW

Even though trunk line produce a win for white, but I don't claim this (18-15) as a losing move in the book, but give the status as "untested" :P

Your opinion ?

Regards,

Alex
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Re: 10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Ed Gilbert on Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:54 pm

Hi Alex,

KingsRow says the position in the diagram is a draw. Following your proposed trunk line, after 8-12 25-22 4-8, then 29-25 is indeed a loss, but 26-23 draws. One way to continue is 9-14 22-17 5-9 17x10 7x14 29-25 3-7 30-26 ...

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Re: 10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:24 pm

Hi, Ed !

Very interesting ! Proceed from diagram ... 8-12 25-22 4-8 26-23 (I also analyse this move) 9-14 22-17 ... In my book I am giving here 14-18* (instead your 5-9) 23-14 7-11 ... how you draw it here ?

I am giving you the whole line to the end from this point as it is printed in the book:

15-10 6-15 17-13 15-18 29-25 11-16 30-26 8-11 14-10 18-23 27-18 20-27 31-24 16-20 24-19 2-6 18-14 6-24 28-19 20-24 26-22 24-27 22-18 27-31 25-22 3-8 RW

This play was generated by Nemesis with 8 pieces database.

Any improvement on white play ?

Alex
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Re: 10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Ed Gilbert on Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:43 am

Hi Alex,

1. 10-14 23-18 2. 14x23 27x18 3. 12-16 32-27 4. 16-20 18-15 {!?} 5. 11x18 22x15 6. 8-12 25-22
7. 4-8 26-23 8. 9-14 22-17 9. 14-18 23x14 10. 7-11 15-10 11. 6x15 30-26 {instead of your 17-13 which is a loss} 12. 15-18 29-25
13. 2-6 26-23 14. 11-15 24-19 15. 15x24 28x19 draw

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Re: 10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:52 am

yes :lol:

though most part of book is already completed and is in in PDF format, but I will add KR comments "last second".

Alex
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Re: 10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Ed Gilbert on Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:57 pm

Hi Alex,

White also has an alternate way to draw, instead of 30-26:

29-25 12. 2-6 30-26 13. 15-18 26-23 14. 11-15 14-10 15. 8-11 23x14 16. 6-9 24-19 17. 9x18 17-14 18. 15x24 28x19 ... draw

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Re: 10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Martin Fierz on Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:52 pm

shr wrote:Hi, Ed !

Very interesting ! Proceed from diagram ... 8-12 25-22 4-8 26-23 (I also analyse this move) 9-14 22-17 ... In my book I am giving here 14-18* (instead your 5-9) 23-14 7-11 ... how you draw it here ?

I am giving you the whole line to the end from this point as it is printed in the book:

15-10 6-15 17-13 15-18 29-25 11-16 30-26 8-11 14-10 18-23 27-18 20-27 31-24 16-20 24-19 2-6 18-14 6-24 28-19 20-24 26-22 24-27 22-18 27-31 25-22 3-8 RW

This play was generated by Nemesis with 8 pieces database.

Any improvement on white play ?

Alex


Hi Alex,

as Ed already said, 17-13 is the loser in your line. The reason I'm adding something to this thread is the following: after 17-13 this is what Cake says:
depth 1/3/1.2 time 0.00s value=0 nodes 18 1kN/s db 0% pv 2- 7
depth 3/10/3.8 time 0.00s value=4 nodes 357 35kN/s db 0% pv 12-16 29-25 16-19 25-22
depth 5/14/6.5 time 0.00s value=2 nodes 2982 298kN/s db 0% pv 12-16 29-25 15-18 21-17 8-12 25-21
depth 7/21/8.1 time 0.01s value=10 nodes 16023 801kN/s db 0% pv 12-16 29-25 15-18 30-26 8-12 14-10 2- 6 26-23
depth 9/22/10.5 time 0.04s value=26 nodes 57169 1143kN/s db 94% pv 12-16 29-25 3- 7 30-26 8-12 21-17 1- 6 26-23
depth 11/24/11.7 time 0.15s value=24 nodes 185600 1160kN/s db 95% pv 12-16 31-26 15-18 29-25 11-15 26-23 2- 7 13- 9
depth 13/27/13.5 time 0.46s value=70 nodes 559904 1188kN/s db 88% pv 3- 7 29-25 1- 6 24-19 15x24 28x19 11-16 19-15
depth 15/29/15.6 time 0.63s value=80 nodes 765332 1193kN/s db 87% pv 3- 7 21-17 1- 6 31-26 6- 9 13x 6 2x18 26-23
depth 17/30/17.5 time 1.26s value=92 nodes 1466891 1153kN/s db 80% pv 3- 7 21-17 1- 6 24-19 15x24 28x19 11-16 19-15
depth 19/33/19.5 time 2.54s value=96 nodes 2833336 1109kN/s db 76% pv 3- 7 21-17 1- 6 24-19 15x24 28x19 11-16 19-15
depth 21/37/21.8 time 17.48s value=118 nodes 12442631 711kN/s db 68% pv 3- 7 13- 9 15-18 24-19 11-16 19-15 1- 6 30-26

so about half a second to see a huge advantage. Perhaps you should consider using another program :-)

cheers
martin

PS: the line you are looking at is given in my huge book as slight advantage for red, but no more. My book ends here:
1. 10-14 23-18 2. 14x23 27x18 3. 12-16 32-27 4. 16-20 18-15 {!?} 5. 11x18 22x15 6. 8-12 25-22 7. 4-8 26-23 (value -2), but after 8. 9-14 22-17 9. 5-9 it has transposed into another book line which is given as +8 for red.
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Re: 10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:15 pm

Martin Fierz wrote:Perhaps you should consider using another program :-)


Hi, Martin ! Perhaps you right, but I don't want to say anything negative about Nemesis. For several years this program was my first choice and powerful tool, which I used in my preparation. Nemesis greatly helped me 2-3 years ago to generate some cooks I used in my matches (and some are still waiting a right moment :lol: ).

Today I am using Cake and KR about the same amount of time, as Nemesis, but at the time when this article for my book was written originally (2 years ago) - both Cake and KR had far less opening books.

The only thing I disagree with Cake - rated this draw (after 26-23) as "slight advantage". Not for me ! White position is critical here and for any normal human being must be considered as "bottle of tranqulizators" (Tom Wiswell quote)

Regards,

Alex
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Re: 10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Macb on Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:12 am

Alex., My copy of Nemesis never made the losing 17-13 move. In the first half second 29-25 was the choice and that move draws also according to Kingsrow's 10 piece data base and then Nemesis switched to 30-26 and stayed with that move all the way to depth 35 at which I was satisfied that the move was sound. Nemesis rates red with only having a +2 advantage after white made the correct 30-26 move. All the top 3 programs, Cake, Kingsrow, and Nemesis draws this position easily.

All the best,
Mac
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Mac
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Re: 10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Martin Fierz on Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:25 am

Macb wrote:Alex., My copy of Nemesis never made the losing 17-13 move. In the first half second 29-25 was the choice and that move draws also according to Kingsrow's 10 piece data base and then Nemesis switched to 30-26 and stayed with that move all the way to depth 35 at which I was satisfied that the move was sound. Nemesis rates red with only having a +2 advantage after white made the correct 30-26 move. All the top 3 programs, Cake, Kingsrow, and Nemesis draws this position easily.

All the best,
Mac


thanks for the info, Mac. I would have been quite surprised if Nemesis had really played this move!

cheers
Martin
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Re: 10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:01 pm

Shame on poor Alex !

I really don't know and don't remember whats happened 2 years ago when I worked on this line. Obviously - it is not a Nemesis fault at all ! First of all - my PC memory were not upgraded around this time and I had only 256MB :evil: RAM (I had upgraded it later in 2004). Secondary - it is not a situation when I set position at the right moment asking program to analyze. Perhaps program comeup with losing 17-13 move earlier, several moves ago, and I didn't extend search :roll:

Yet, I don't know any book written in 200 years without any inaccuracies ! :lol: My book is not exception. Mostly, 99% play was checked by major programs, but as we can see with this perfect example - it is almost impossible in book with such volume of information and number of play to stay away from some inaccuracies.

Jerry Childer, former mail World Champion, who had a chance to review a big portion of book, told me, that without using program he doesn't have any corrections or improvements to my text ! And in other hands - he find something new for him.

My book is not Encyclopedia and reader should not "read and memorize", but instead - "read, think and analyze" !

Regards,

Alex
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Old Play

Postby Michael Holmes on Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:00 pm

moiseyev, I sent you play on this line several years ago. However, since then we have the strong computers that do the work. Also, a couple of years ago when the posted the cooks and odd play worksheet on the internet this line was in there. Chuck also used it, unsuccessfully, in the 2001 International Match.

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Re: 10-14 23-18 14-23 ... 18-15 defense soundness

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:29 pm

Publishing line in the book makes it an official PP and help more people to learn it.
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