3- Move tough deck ?

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Macb on Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:08 am

Thanks Alex, Yes, 12-16 21-17 9-14 can be lost on both sides. If Gene agrees and I believe he will as he also suggested 1216 2117 9-14, I will then go to the rest of the executive board to get their blessing and when approved the cards will be made up.
All the best,
Mac
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:32 am

Mac, developing cards system - 20x4, is also kind of art :lol: and not an easy and formal step. You can apporove in Exec openings we selected (if Gene agree), or just wait few more days, when we build cards and then Exec approve everything.

I hope Alan and Richard also have a chance to follow our dispute, so it will not be a big surprize for them this list !

All after all - I think we cleaned up tough deck very well and it looks much better than one we used.

======================================================================
If we are talking about "complexity", I was thinking about possibility to add opening 9-13 24-20 10-15, which generates a good portion of "crazy, complicated" positions. However I don't want to delay dispute and make it more complicated. It is a question only of personal preferences, style, etc. Also, I was unable to find another good candidate to drop. Each opening on this list can be considered as tough by some players.

===============================================================

About cards ... each card in tough deck should have even proportion of of "more tough" and "less tough" openings. Thats why we still need now a ranking list for those 80 openings.

Regards,

Alex
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Macb on Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:48 am

Thanks Alex. for reminding me that we need to balance the cards as much as possible. I think this process may take a few days. I am sure Rich and Alan are following these posts as they don't miss much but I will send them an email and alert them that the committee has come up with 80 openings for the tough deck and are in the process of determining which openings should go on each card. It looks like Gene, you and I work well together so this makes this difficult process flow more smoothly. Thanks for being a team player.
All the best,
Mac
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:37 pm

Hmmm ... :lol: well ... everyone should leave something in history :lol: This is my version of openings ranking list. I didn't use any sources (KR or Richard Pask). I just looked at the whole list backward and forward and picked one I like.

Please, don't ask me :evil: why this opening is #18, and this - #54. Just add your comments / objections / corrections.

Remember - any ranking list is very subjective :lol: and highly depends on experience, knowledges, style etc. It is not so critical, which opening is #1, and which is #2. More important, in general, is to forms correctly group of "20-s (1-20, 21-40, 41-60, 61-80)

If you see something is obviously wrong in your opinion ... lets say for instance: opening #68 must be between 21-40 - add your comments.

Regards,

Alex

========================================================================

01) 10-14 22-17 9-13
02) 9-13 22-18 11-16
03) 11-16 22-17 9-13
04) 9-13 23-18 11-16
05) 9-13 24-20 11-16
06) 9-13 22-18 10-14
07) 11-16 23-19 16-23
08 ) 9-14 23-18 14-23
09) 10-15 21-17 7-10
10) 11-16 21-17 7-11
11) 10-14 22-17 11-16
12) 10-15 23-19 11-16
13) 12-16 24-20 10-15
14) 10-14 22-18 12-16
15) 10-15 22-17 15-19
16) 9-13 22-18 6-9
17) 10-15 21-17 9-13
18 ) 10-14 22-17 14-18
19) 11-16 22-18 7-11
20) 9-13 22-18 11-15

21) 9-13 23-19 10-15
22) 9-13 23-18 6-9
23) 10-14 22-17 11-15
24) 11-16 24-19 7-11
25) 9-13 22-18 10-15
26) 9-13 23-18 11-15
27) 10-14 22-18 7-10
28 ) 10-15 21-17 15-18
29) 10-14 24-19 14-18
30) 10-15 23-18 6-10
31) 10-14 23-19 11-15
32) 10-15 22-17 6-10
33) 9-14 22-18 10-15
34) 10-14 23-18 14-23
35) 10-14 22-18 6-10
36) 11-15 21-17 9-13
37) 10-15 23-18 9-14
38 ) 11-16 23-18 7-11
39) 11-16 22-17 7-11
40) 9-13 23-18 11-15

41) 9-13 24-19 5-9
42) 11-15 23-18 12-16
43) 11-16 21-17 8-11
44) 9-13 24-19 10-14
45) 9-14 22-17 6-9
46) 9-14 22-18 11-15
47) 10-15 22-17 9-13
48 ) 10-15 22-17 7-10
49) 10-14 24-19 7-10
50) 9-13 22-18 12-16
51) 10-14 24-19 11-16
52) 11-15 24-20 12-16
53) 10-15 21-17 6-10
54) 10-14 24-20 14-18
55) 10-15 23-18 11-16
56) 9-14 22-17 5-9
57) 10-14 24-20 7-10
58 ) 9-13 24-19 11-16
59) 9-13 24-20 10-14
60) 9-14 24-19 11-16

61) 10-14 23-19 7-10
62) 10-14 23-19 6-10
63) 9-14 22-18 11-16
64) 11-15 24-19 15-24
65) 11-16 24-20 7-11
66) 12-16 22-18 16-19
67) 9-14 23-19 14-18
68 ) 9-13 24-19 6-9
69) 9-13 23-19 6-9
70) 9-13 23-18 12-16
71) 10-14 24-19 6-10
72) 11-15 21-17 15-19
73) 9-13 24-20 5-9
74) 11-15 23-18 15-19
75) 9-13 24-20 6-9
76) 9-14 24-20 10-15
77) 11-16 22-18 16-19
78 ) 12-16 21-17 16-19
79) 12-16 21-17 9-14
80) 9-13 24-19 11-15
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Macb on Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:38 pm

Alex, your list looks good to me. I now suggest that we have 20 cards with 4 openings on each card. I would use your ranking and the first 20 cards would have one opening on it , for example the first card would have opening #1 and the second card opening #2 all the way to #20. After doing this I would use reverse order of ranking to insure card #1 was balance like card #20. Here is an example of what I am talking about.

Card #1

01) 10-14 22-17 9-13
80) 9-13 24-19 11-15
60) 9-14 24-19 11-16
40) 9-13 23-18 11-15


Card #2

02) 9-13 22-18 11-16
79) 12-16 21-17 9-14
59) 9-13 24-20 10-14
39) 11-16 22-17 7-11


And etc. Card #3 through 20 using the ranking you proposed. By doing this the cards will be balance and card #1 will only be slightly more diffficult than card #20. Alex. What do you think about this idea? By tomorrow, I can have all the cards grouped by tomorrow unless you want to do it with the formula I showed in the illustration above.
All the best,
Mac
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:43 pm

Mac, sounds good to me. With this procedure we should have all cards well balanced in terms of toughness. After we (you !) finish creating cards, we have also to place openings on lines and assign number 1-4 to each card ... and here I have one trick in mind :lol:

Using an old 144 deck (24x6), several times some "smart" :twisted: players proposed to me to use one card only and play the opening which is corresponding the number on this card.

Of course I always declined this offer, because in reality, it is only deal with 24 openings, not 144 !

However, for the tough deck I propose to create a "hiding super tough" deck under the regular tough deck, which includes first 20 openings only !

Lets say, card has assigned to #3. Lets make opening #3 on this card the hardest one (from group 1-20 on ranking list)

This can be done easy on the final stage, when we assigned numbers to cards. For instance ... on the sample you provided, first card should receive #1, and on the second card opening 9-13 22-18 11-16 must be placed on the second line and card assigned to #2

This "hiding toughest deck" can be very useful and some organisers / players, can use it if they desire.

In this case - you select only one card, and get an opening from ranking list zone 1-20 !!!

Mac / Gene, what do you think about this trick ?

Alex
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:51 am

Gene, what do you think abour everything I talked with Mac in the past couple days here ? Any comments / objections / corrections ? Do we have your final approval of openings and ranking list ?

Sincerely,

Alex
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Macb on Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:14 am

Alex., I am waiting for Gene to reply before going any further. Using the rankings that you produced yesterday, I have grouped the 20 cards by opengings. I used the formula I talked about yesterday. I will wait to put the numbers on each group that is needed to print the cards after you and Gene give your blessing. I have the groups now on excel and that makes it easier for me to move them around. I know I will need to add the numbers by the openings but just am waiting for you and Gene.


10-14 22-17 9-13
9-13 24-19 11-15
9-14 24-19 11-16
9-13 23-18 11-15



9-13 22-18 11-16
12-16 21-17 9-14
9-13 24-20 10-14
11-16 22-17 7-11



11-16 22-17 9-13
12-16 21-17 16-19
9-13 24-19 11-16
11-16 23-18 7-11



9-13 23-18 11-16
11-16 22-18 16-19
10-14 24-20 7-10
10-15 23-18 9-14



9-13 24-20 11-16
9-14 24-20 10-15
9-14 22-17 5-9
11-15 21-17 9-13



9-13 22-18 10-14
9-13 24-20 6-9
10-15 23-18 11-16
10-14 22-18 6-10



11-16 23-19 16-23
11-15 23-18 15-19
10-14 24-20 14-18
10-14 23-18 14-23



9-14 23-18 14-23
9-13 24-20 5-9
10-15 21-17 6-10
9-14 22-18 10-15



10-15 21-17 7-10
11-15 21-17 15-19
11-15 24-20 12-16
10-15 22-17 6-10



11-16 21-17 7-11
10-14 24-19 6-10
10-14 24-19 11-16
10-14 23-19 11-15



10-14 22-17 11-16
9-13 23-18 12-16
9-13 22-18 12-16
10-15 23-18 6-10



10-15 23-19 11-16
9-13 23-19 6-9
10-14 24-19 7-10
10-14 24-19 14-18



12-16 24-20 10-15
9-13 24-19 6-9
10-15 22-17 7-10
10-15 21-17 15-18



10-14 22-18 12-16
9-14 23-19 14-18
10-15 22-17 9-13
10-14 22-18 7-10



10-15 22-17 15-19
12-16 22-18 16-19
9-14 22-18 11-15
9-13 23-18 11-15



9-13 22-18 6-9
11-16 24-20 7-11
9-14 22-17 6-9
9-13 22-18 10-15



10-15 21-17 9-13
11-15 24-19 15-24
9-13 24-19 10-14
11-16 24-19 7-11



10-14 22-17 14-18
9-14 22-18 11-16
11-16 21-17 8-11
10-14 22-17 11-15



11-16 22-18 7-11
10-14 23-19 6-10
11-15 23-18 12-16
9-13 23-18 6-9



9-13 22-18 11-15
10-14 23-19 7-10
9-13 24-19 5-9
9-13 23-19 10-15
All the best,
Mac
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Macb on Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:25 am

Hello Alex. & Gene,

I am going to go ahead and put the numbers from 1 thru 4 on each card as I don't think that will hurt anything. If you want me to add anything else let me know or I will be waiting for both of your comments.



1. 10-14 22-17 9-13
2. 9-13 24-19 11-15
3. 9-14 24-19 11-16
4. 9-13 23-18 11-15



1. 9-13 22-18 11-16
2. 12-16 21-17 9-14
3. 9-13 24-20 10-14
4. 11-16 22-17 7-11



1. 11-16 22-17 9-13
2. 12-16 21-17 16-19
3. 9-13 24-19 11-16
4. 11-16 23-18 7-11



1. 9-13 23-18 11-16
2. 11-16 22-18 16-19
3. 10-14 24-20 7-10
4. 10-15 23-18 9-14



1. 9-13 24-20 11-16
2. 9-14 24-20 10-15
3. 9-14 22-17 5-9
4. 11-15 21-17 9-13



1. 9-13 22-18 10-14
2. 9-13 24-20 6-9
3. 10-15 23-18 11-16
4. 10-14 22-18 6-10



1. 11-16 23-19 16-23
2. 11-15 23-18 15-19
3. 10-14 24-20 14-18
4. 10-14 23-18 14-23



1. 19-14 23-18 14-23
2. 9-13 24-20 5-9
3. 10-15 21-17 6-10
4. 9-14 22-18 10-15



1. 10-15 21-17 7-10
2. 11-15 21-17 15-19
3. 11-15 24-20 12-16
4. 10-15 22-17 6-10



1. 11-16 21-17 7-11
2. 10-14 24-19 6-10
3. 10-14 24-19 11-16
4. 10-14 23-19 11-15



1. 10-14 22-17 11-16
2. 9-13 23-18 12-16
3. 9-13 22-18 12-16
4. 10-15 23-18 6-10



1. 10-15 23-19 11-16
2. 9-13 23-19 6-9
3. 10-14 24-19 7-10
4. 10-14 24-19 14-18



1. 12-16 24-20 10-15
2. 9-13 24-19 6-9
3. 10-15 22-17 7-10
4. 10-15 21-17 15-18



1. 10-14 22-18 12-16
2. 9-14 23-19 14-18
3. 10-15 22-17 9-13
4. 10-14 22-18 7-10



1. 10-15 22-17 15-19
2. 12-16 22-18 16-19
3. 9-14 22-18 11-15
4. 9-13 23-18 11-15



1. 9-13 22-18 6-9
2. 11-16 24-20 7-11
3. 9-14 22-17 6-9
4. 9-13 22-18 10-15



1. 10-15 21-17 9-13
2. 11-15 24-19 15-24
3. 9-13 24-19 10-14
4. 11-16 24-19 7-11



1. 10-14 22-17 14-18
2. 9-14 22-18 11-16
3. 11-16 21-17 8-11
4. 10-14 22-17 11-15



1. 11-16 22-18 7-11
2. 10-14 23-19 6-10
3. 11-15 23-18 12-16
4. 9-13 23-18 6-9



1. 9-13 22-18 11-15
2. 10-14 23-19 7-10
3. 9-13 24-19 5-9
4. 9-13 23-19 10-15
All the best,
Mac
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Macb on Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:56 am

Hello Alex. & Gene,

Ok, I have put strongest opening on each card that corresponds to that #. For example #1 card has opening #1 as the toughest by your ranking and #4 card has opening #4 as the toughest opening on that card. I have done this throughout. Is their anything else you want me to do. I am awaiting comments from you and Gene.


#1
1. 10-14 22-17 9-13
2. 9-13 24-19 11-15
3. 9-14 24-19 11-16
4. 9-13 23-18 11-15


#2
1. 12-16 21-17 9-14
2. 9-13 22-18 11-16
3. 9-13 24-20 10-14
4. 11-16 22-17 7-11


#3
1. 12-16 21-17 16-19
2. 9-13 24-19 11-16
3. 11-16 22-17 9-13
4. 11-16 23-18 7-11


#4
1. 11-16 22-18 16-19
2. 10-14 24-20 7-10
3. 10-15 23-18 9-14
4. 9-13 23-18 11-16


#1
1. 9-13 24-20 11-16
2. 9-14 24-20 10-15
3. 9-14 22-17 5-9
4. 11-15 21-17 9-13


#2
1. 9-13 24-20 6-9
2. 9-13 22-18 10-14
3. 10-15 23-18 11-16
4. 10-14 22-18 6-10


#3
1. 11-15 23-18 15-19
2. 10-14 24-20 14-18
3. 11-16 23-19 16-23
4. 10-14 23-18 14-23


#4
1. 9-13 24-20 5-9
2. 10-15 21-17 6-10
3. 9-14 22-18 10-15
4. 9-14 23-18 14-23


#1
1. 10-15 21-17 7-10
2. 11-15 21-17 15-19
3. 11-15 24-20 12-16
4. 10-15 22-17 6-10


#2
1. 10-14 24-19 6-10
2. 11-16 21-17 7-11
3. 10-14 24-19 11-16
4. 10-14 23-19 11-15


#3
1. 9-13 23-18 12-16
2. 9-13 22-18 12-16
3. 10-14 22-17 11-16
4. 10-15 23-18 6-10


#4
1. 9-13 23-19 6-9
2. 10-14 24-19 7-10
3. 10-14 24-19 14-18
4. 10-15 23-19 11-16


#1
1. 12-16 24-20 10-15
2. 9-13 24-19 6-9
3. 10-15 22-17 7-10
4. 10-15 21-17 15-18


#2
1. 9-14 23-19 14-18
2. 10-14 22-18 12-16
3. 10-15 22-17 9-13
4. 10-14 22-18 7-10


#3
1. 12-16 22-18 16-19
2. 9-14 22-18 11-15
3. 10-15 22-17 15-19
4. 9-13 23-18 11-15


#4
1. 11-16 24-20 7-11
2. 9-14 22-17 6-9
3. 9-13 22-18 10-15
4. 9-13 22-18 6-9


#1
1. 10-15 21-17 9-13
2. 11-15 24-19 15-24
3. 9-13 24-19 10-14
4. 11-16 24-19 7-11


#2
1. 9-14 22-18 11-16
2. 10-14 22-17 14-18
3. 11-16 21-17 8-11
4. 10-14 22-17 11-15


#3
1. 10-14 23-19 6-10
2. 11-15 23-18 12-16
3. 11-16 22-18 7-11
4. 9-13 23-18 6-9


#4
1. 10-14 23-19 7-10
2. 9-13 24-19 5-9
3. 9-13 23-19 10-15
4. 9-13 22-18 11-15
All the best,
Mac
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:09 am

Mac, I am 150% satisfy with this !!!

This is a great tough deck, and I think we worked and cooperate very well and successfully. After Gene approve this, I propose to Execs to make & print 20-25 sets, for players in Masters Division + Execs + maybe some directors / District manegers / organisers.

However, minimum we need 1 set only :P - for referee of National tourney in June.

Sincerely,

Alex
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Gene Lindsay on Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:41 pm

Hi Mac & Alex sorry I was gone yesterday and today. I just got back a couple of hours ago. Mac, I like your suggestion and I agree with you that 12-16, 21-17, 9-14 should be in the tough deck and 12-16, 24-20, 8-12 probably should not. I am very satisfied with this and the way you made the cards. You guys did a great job while I was gone.

Gene Lindsay
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:53 pm

I am proud of being a part of this process and member of team !

Alan, many thanks to you for giving me such wonderful opportunity. Mac, you can pass now cards to ACF Executive Committee, and I hope - administration will be also productive as well as our Committee, :lol: and finish business successfully by creating a deck.

I do strongly beleive that any printing company can do this in few days for few bucks !

Alex
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Macb on Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:37 am

Hello Alex. and Gene,

I also enjoyed working with both of you and I am happy we were able to come up with a viable solution to this problem. We worked well as a team and I look forward to the next time we get to work together. I will submit the list to the rest of the executive committee for their approval and priniting of the cards. Once again thanks for being part of a successful process.
All the best,
Mac
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby tommyc on Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:14 pm

It might be an good idea to take up the deck that was used in last World Mail Ty.......i.e. the Computer Tough Deck plus the 12 new openings thats 72!! or roughly 50%of the total openings available .

Tommy Canning.
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