3- Move tough deck ?

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Gene Lindsay on Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:34 am

Ingos, the tough deck is only used in the masters division of the 3-move national tournament. We play 4 game rounds winner take all and you draw the 1st opening from the standard deck and after the first 2 games if the players are even you draw a tough deck opening so as not to get a GAYP or easy opening. The idea is to try to get a winner in the round. Its the same for everyone in the masters and everyone has an equal chance.

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:00 am

Gene Lindsay wrote:Alex, Richard is correct if round is tied you draw from the tough deck. It does not matter 2 draws or 1 win each, you still draw from the tough deck to try to decide a winner.

Gene Lindsay


Hmmm ... maybe. I always had impression, that it is used only in case of two draws. So far I played in 4 Nationals (3 moves), but never had a situation when everyone wins a a game :lol: It was happened twice with me against Lowder (1999, 2001) in GAYP Nationals.

Richard and other, sorry for confusion :roll:

Ingo, Gene is right - everyone has even chances. 3 moves is always lottery anyway and luck strongly depends on openings selected. I read in the book, that some time ago ideas were circulated in ACF (never materialized), to allow Masters play tough deck only, and Majors & Minors - regular deck.

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Ingo_Zachos on Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:13 am

It seems like I have to explain my point:

There r some 4 game heats, that r decided without the though deck, whereas others r.
This is disturbing the idea of 3 move ballot: give an equal chance for everyone to get any of the 156 3-move openings, those which tend to be more drawish and the others. Luck is thus systematically reduced for all participants of a ty without a though deck, which is fair.

The point is: if you use different methods of balloting, or even worse, you use a different fraction only of all 156 3-move openings, which is what you do if you use a though deck with less then all openings, you don't have equal chances to get any of the 156 openings. The chances to get the though deck openings (which tend to less drawn games) r higher in a heat which was tied after 2 games.
And not all get the same chances of having a though deck ballot, for some have more heats not resulting in a tie after two rounds.
Someone who takes risks and loses the first game or wins it, and leads or trails by one game or two after two games played does not get better chances to get the though deck openings, and thus has higher chances of getting the drawish openings.

Thus aggressive players who r likely to be ahead or trail after two games moreoften get punished, as they do not get better chances to get the though deck openings (to score more wins).
This is a clear contradiction to that what was desired.

It's like using only ten numbers on a roulette wheel for those who did not win before in a first roulette game for a second roulette game.
Nice for them, but the others get worse chances, because at the time they won they had the same chances as the losers, and in the second game they still use a 42 numbers wheel.
So one group, the group of the losers get a better overall chance over two roulette games than the losers in the first roulette game.
That is applied probability, not just my personal opinon.

So a though deck as you use it does punish the players which tend to win or lose more games then others, the aggressive players, but boosts the chances of "solid" players who play two draws more often.
It depends on how much heats you have without a tie after two games.
The more you have, the greater the system is against you and vice versa.

A better solution would be to reduce the number of 3-move openings from 156 to a smaller number (cut out the drawish openings), i.e. to use a though deck in all games!
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:29 pm

Ingo_Zachos wrote:to score more wins


Ingo, remember - winner takes everything ! That means - I can't win more than one round. Number of games I win doesn't make any sense.

It will be easy, if you consider this as "mini-match".

If I play 3-moves WCM match with you, it doesn't matter - you win 21 games, or just one and 39 draws :lol: The result the same - you win match !

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Formation of a " Tough Deck" Committee??

Postby Alan Millhone on Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:41 pm

Hello everyone:

Perhaps a committee should be formed to study and formulate a new tough deck of say 80 openings (more or less) . The new openings should be included and perhaps other removed?

I would ask that Mr. Alex, Brian Hinkle, Gene Lindsay, Mac Banks consider serving on this committee to study,recommend and then develop a new ,up to date 3-move tough deck by this June's ACF Nationals in Medina,Ohio.

Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
" AN AVERAGE CHECKER/DRAUGHTS PLAYER "
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Gene Lindsay on Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:57 pm

Alan, yes if you would like me to serve on this committee, I would be happy to do so. However it might be best to use the tough deck we have now plus the 12 new openings for this June's tournament. However I have no objection to trying to get it done by then and using it, if everyone is agreeable.

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:17 am

Alan, I also would be glad to work on Committee. My opinion is slightly differs from Gene (just number of openings only), but this is what you probably wanted and expect from us - combine different opinion and views.

You made a smart choice by selecting two active Master players - me and Gene, and also adding to Commitee two mail players - World Champion Mac Banks and Brian Hinkle.

Perhaps Mac would the best choice to be a "Head of Committee", also representing ACF in Committee, as a member of Execs.

ACF should be ready to print at least one example of deck, after we comeup with solution.

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Reply to Mr. Alex and Gene

Postby Alan Millhone on Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:32 pm

Hello Mr. Alex and Gene:

I will leave it up to committee to make recommendations as to size (openings) in deck, ranking of openings and positioning on each card,etc. Either of you are welocme to contact Mac and Brian to see if they will serve on this important committee. It will be in your hands to 'hash' out all details,etc. to formulate an updated and accurate tough deck for our upcoming ACF Nationals. If the new deck is decided among the committee it could be printed off on stiff paper and then laminated if everything is sent to me to get the deck made.

Others might want a deck and cost of more than one deck would be considered if enough interest surfaces. All profits from possible deck sales would go int othe ACF Treasury. This item can be discussed later. Usually only one deck will be needed, but some collectors (as myself) would welcome a deck in their collection of Checker related items.

Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
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District 6 Champion
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Macb on Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:02 am

Here is a list of the critical openings that I came up with for the computer tourney in Las Vegas in 2001. As far as I am concerned these would be great for the tuff deck. I am listing them here for everyone to review.

61 Critical Openings

----9-13 22-18 6-9
----9-13 22-18 10-14
----9-13 22-18 10-15
----9-13 22-18 11-15
----9-13 22-18 11-16
----9-13 22-18 12-16
----9-13 23-18 6-9
----9-13 23-18 11-15
----9-13 23-18 11-16
----9-13 23-19 10-15
----9-13 24-19 10-14
----9-13 24-20 11-16

----9-14 22-17 6-9
----9-14 23-18 14-23
----9-14 23-19 14-18
----9-14 24-20 11-16

----10-14 22-17 7-10
----10-14 22-17 9-13
----10-14 22-17 11-15
----10-14 22-17 11-16
----10-14 22-17 14-18
----10-14 22-18 6-10
----10-14 22-18 7-10
----10-14 22-18 12-16
----10-14 23-19 6-10
----10-14 23-19 7-10
----10-14 23-19 11-15
----10-14 23-19 14-18
----10-14 24-19 6-10
----10-14 24-19 14-18
----10-14 24-20 14-18

----10-15 21-17 6-10
----10-15 21-17 7-10
----10-15 21-17 9-13
----10-15 21-17 11-16
----10-15 22-17 6-10
----10-15 22-17 9-13
----10-15 22-17 15-19
----10-15 23-18 6-10
----10-15 23-18 12-16
----10-15 23-19 11-16
----10-15 24-20 12-16
----10-15 24-20 15-19

----11-15 21-17 15-19
----11-15 23-18 12-16
----11-15 23-18 15-19
----11-15 24-20 12-16

----11-16 21-17 7-11
----11-16 21-17 9-13
----11-16 22-17 9-13
----11-16 22-18 7-11
----11-16 23-18 7-11
----11-16 23-19 16-23
----11-16 24-19 7-11
----11-16 24-20 7-11

----12-16 21-17 9-13
----12-16 21-17 9-14
----12-16 21-17 16-19
----12-16 22-18 16-19
----12-16 22-18 16-20
----12-16 23-18 16-19


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Thanks Mac!

Postby Alan Millhone on Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:13 pm

Hello Mac:

Your posting of openings is appreciated and should induce further discussion. To an average player as myself I find the entire 156 deck a " Tough Deck"................ Regardless of the opening chosen. Dr. Tinsley once remarked that 3-move is vast like an ocean.

Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:16 pm

Macb wrote:Here is a list of the critical openings that I came up with for the computer tourney in Las Vegas in 2001. As far as I am concerned these would be great for the tuff deck. I am listing them here for everyone to review.

61 Critical Openings


Now I can repeat original Alan Millhone question :lol: : does anyone has a full ACF tough deck (as of today).

Mac, I think your list shall be extended a bit. I always thought debutes like "11-15 24-19 15-24" is worthy to include in tough deck, even though it is a classic GAYP Second Double corner opening (weak for white).

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Macb on Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:25 pm

Hello Alex & Alan,

Alan, as you stated, to some of us that don't know publish play like a Don Lafferty the entire deck is a tough deck. Alex. , if the purpose of a tough deck is to try and create wins then the list that I presented seem to be the toughest. But on the other hand , some of the players such as you may have cooks on the openings most think are even rated and want more openings included in the tough deck. To me, I am happy just to draw a random opening out of the 156 deck and if I happen to get a go-as-you please opening after two draws with a great player, then I am happy that I may have a chance to have a drawn match. I think that about 20 more openings could be added to the list I showed in an earler post but that also could result in more drawn matches so that seems to defeat the purpose of going to the tough deck in the first place. I seem to side with Alan on what's wrong with just picking another opening from the entire deck. This is how we draw the openings for the first opening and I don't see anything wrong with it. Reviewing the go-as-you please matches show me anyone can lose almost any opening at any time. I am a team player and want what is best for checkers and of course vote to support what most want.
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Macb on Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:38 pm

Alan, I would be most happy to work on a committee to get a tough deck before the National tourney in June. A lot of time and effort was put on the list of 61 that I submitted in an earlier post so it would not be that difficult to add a few more to that list. At one time , I had about 80 openings listed and reduced to number to 61. Alex, I have a proposal that for the master division that all games in the 7th and further rounds be only from the tough deck! Actually, you could even carry this back to round six if you wanted to.
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:51 pm

Mac, for the first quick express review, I didn't find on your list such openings as:

1) 9-13 24-20 10-14
2) 11-16 24-19 9-13
3) 11-15 24-19 15-24
4) 9-14 22-17 5-9
5) 9-14 24-19 11-16
6) 11-16 21-17 8-11
7) 9-14 22-18 11-15

About last opening ... in 3 moves 2003 WCM I won both games here (!) against Ron King and in 2005 I won one game. Do you think it is not tough enough ? :lol:

In other hands, I don't understand - what opening 12-16 22-18 16-20 is doing on this list ? :P

My estimates go to 72-75 openings (at least), or maybe even up to 80. I need to look, what openings from ACF tough deck were omitted on your list.

Regards,

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Gene Lindsay on Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:28 pm

Alex and Mac, If you have Solid Checkers part 3 look on pages 48-52 at Richard Pask's evaluations. I think this would give us a good starting point, if we use all openings he classifies as strong or best we have 65 openings add the 12 new openings and that gives us 77. And Alex he does include 11-15, 24-19, 15-24. He does not include 12-16, 21-17, 9-14 though and I think that it should be included and maybe a couple more would give us 80.

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