3- Move tough deck ?

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3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alan Millhone on Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:03 pm

Hello everyone:

Who has access to the 3-Move 'tough deck' ? Also is it still okay since we added the new openings? With our June ACF Nationals approaching I wanted to get this item discussed ahead of time. Comments most welcome.

Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
District 6 Champion
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:24 pm

Alan Millhone wrote:I wanted to get this item discussed


OK, Alan, lets discuss :P What is your opinion ?

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Tough Deck Discussion

Postby Alan Millhone on Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:55 pm

Hello Mr. Alex:

I am not enough of an expert to render an opinion. All the 3-move openings are tough for me !! If anyone has a tough deck they might list the openings on the forum for review. In Las Vegas I remember Earl Morrison drawing from the tough deck ,but honestly don't know whose deck it was?

so...............................................

1. Who owns a tough deck ?
2. Will someone list the openings contained on the tough deck?

Then we can proceed with a discussion if the current tough deck is okay or needs modification ?

Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
" An average Checker/Draughts Player "
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:48 am

Mr. Millstone, privet !

Here is a Kingsrow openings ranking list ==> http://usacheckers.com/kingsrowrankings.php

There is also Richard Pask and George Miller ranking list (I don't remember - they combine it, or these are two different lists), which slightly varies from Kingsrow list.

Existing official ACF tough deck for 144 ballots includes 84 openings. Once we decide to use Kingsrow (or any other) ranking list for 156 deck, it is a question now:

how many openings tough deck shall have ?

I think the following numbers can be discussed:

-60;
-64;
-72;
-75;
-78 (half deck);
-80;
-84;
-96;

In my opnion, 60 & 64 is too "tough", 84 & 96 - too "soft". Four other other numbers 72, 75, 78 and 80 can be considered to satisfy most of players of all styles.

I remember - me and Lisle Carmier were very much agree with 78 when he prepared deck, but then everything with tough deck was postponed.

===========================================================

Yes, 72/75/78/80 are good neutral numbers, but personally I like 60 ! So much fun :lol: Computer deck, if I am not mistaken, had 51 opening in the World Championship, :evil: I played my historical match with Wyllie program - 64 openings under 144 deck.

Regards,

Alex
Last edited by Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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From Alan Millstone!!

Postby Alan Millhone on Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:17 am

Hello Mr. Alex:

A little bit of fun.......... I love it:-)

BTW........... I would like to see further input from other Master players,etc. on the reconfiguration of the tough deck before this June's Nationals if possible? 60 openings sounds like a good number ? I will basically listen to those much more learned than me.

Also, what have the English,Irish,Scottish players done on the tough deck? They adopted the new openings befroe we did.

Does the tough deck really need 'updated' ? Is it tough enough the way it stands at present? However with the addition of the new openings maybe it should be updated to be accurate? Just passing thoughts to ponder and discuss.

Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
District 6 Champion
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:46 am

Alan, I have ACF tough deck, but few card left (kids played with cards :evil: :evil: :evil: ) - in total 75 from 84. If you want - I can place them here. It doesn't include new openings.

I had reviewed Kigsrow ranking list and feel comfortable to use it for making final decision.

I don't beleive Irish. Scottish, England , Barbados or any other National Checkers / Draughts Federation use tough deck, because they don't play 4 games round. This is restrictly ACF patent :lol: If some day we'll play 2 games rounds only - we don't need tough deck.

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About random selection tough deck.

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:35 am

In order to make the card random selection procedure easy and proper (each opening of tough deck has even chance to be randomly selected) we can use the following systems:

1. 64 cards tough deck. 8 cards, each marked with number 1-8 and has 8 openings on it. (or 16x4)

2. 72 cards tough deck. 12 cards, each marked with 1-6 number and has 6 openings on it.

3. 75 cards tough deck. 15 cards, each marked with number 1-5 and has 5 openings on it.

4. 80 cards tought deck. 20 cards, each marked with number 1-4 and has 4 openings on it.

5. 96 cards tough deck. 24 cards, each marked with number 1-4 and has 4 openings on it.

Any other number of cards in tough deck will make it much harder to do this.

All these systems will allow you to complete 2 easy steps:

1. Pick the card for number.
2. Put card back, mix deck and pick the card again. Use an opening, which march to number selected at first step.

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Gene Lindsay on Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:08 pm

I have never seen an actual tough deck. What we used to use was a regular deck of cards with some of the cards removed. There was a card(about 9x5) that told what opening each card represented. I think I still have one of these cards somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:28 pm

Gene, what do you think about Kingsrow ranking list ==> http://usacheckers.com/kingsrowrankings.php ?

Do you agree in general with it ? It is not so important - what opening ranked as #1 (the toughest) or #2. More important are numbers which are close to cut-off zone, starting 60 and below.

Do you see any more tough (in your opinion) ballots at the bottom of list, which would be worthy to include in "tough deck" ?

Many ballots in this zone are not hard 2-moves, all at the same level of complexity. Sometimes it is hard to say (with inches accuracy) - which one os more toughest.

Regrds,

Alex
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Gene Lindsay on Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:06 pm

Alex, At first glance I don't think too much of it. I looked at your proposed cutoff at 60, then at 61 is the kelso and at 66 the octopus. I doubt if anyone will be able to convice me the kelso is tougher than the octpus. So I think using Kingsrow's list would not be a good idea. The standard tough deck that we have now does not include the kelso, it does include the octopus as it should. How we got the tough deck was that a committee was appointed to decide which openings would be included and which would not. I think the committee was Lowder, Burton and Davis. I think we should use that deck plus the new openings that have been added. I do think that a few of these openings could be thrown out, but we should appoint another committee to study this and make a recommendation and that recommendation should then be voted on.

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:31 pm

Gene Lindsay wrote: I think we should use that deck plus the new openings that have been added. I do think that a few of these openings could be thrown out, but we should appoint another committee to study this and make a recommendation and that recommendation should then be voted on.


Good idea too. And proper. I can only extend it. We can start from existing deck + 12 new openings, in total 96, but then go back and reduce this number to 72-75. I think 96 openings is a huge number and not as tough.

What probably happened with Kigsrow estimates ... programmers usually putted more analyses on the critical openings, therefore Octopus became less critical, than other, less study openings.

Remember, in practice match Kingsrow vs Cake (624 games), from 4 losing game one lost occured in ... GAYP opening FIFE !


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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby rich beckwith on Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:09 pm

John,

The tough Deck has been used for a long time in the Masters group at 3-move Nationals when the round is still tied after the first two-games. The idea is to prevent too "easy" an opening from being drawn to help coax a winner.
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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:09 pm

rich beckwith wrote:when the round is still tied after the first two-games


Richard, not quite correct. The players use tough deck, when first two games in round are drawn. In other words - if each partner win a piece, they don't use a tough deck.

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Ingo_Zachos on Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:21 am

shr wrote: The players use tough deck, when first two games in round are drawn. In other words - if each partner win a piece, they don't use a tough deck.

Alex


This looks to me (never played 3-move) as a violation against the rules of fair play:

either all players should play with a tough deck in all games or no one in no game, but not some players in some games, as this is clearly creating different conditions (easier to win) for some players, and might hurt the chances of the others who might lose ground in a tournament that way.
All chances should be equal for all players!

It would be like some players play their heat in GAYP and others in 3 move.

Greetinx from winter-cold Dortmund, Germany

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Re: 3- Move tough deck ?

Postby Gene Lindsay on Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:25 am

Alex, Richard is correct if round is tied you draw from the tough deck. It does not matter 2 draws or 1 win each, you still draw from the tough deck to try to decide a winner.

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