Another Gemini line

[Ed Gilbert]

1. 10-14 22-17 2. 11-16 17x10 3. 6x15 23-18 4. 15x22 25x18 5. 8-11

Is this a draw or white win? The cake opening book shows an inconclusive result that is strong for white when following with either 21-17 or 29-25. The kingsrow 8pc book shows a similar strong attack with 21-17, but no decisive win. I looked in several large databases of games and could only find one where black played this 8-11 defense.

[Event "Banks Ladder 2002; game 5"]
[Black "H Meadows"]
[White "W Carter"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
1. 10-14 22-17 2. 11-16 17x10 3. 6x15 23-18 4. 15x22 25x18 5. 8-11 24-20 6. 16-19 29-25 7.
3-8 25-22 8. 1-6 21-17 9. 9-13 17-14 10. 6-9 27-24 11. 11-15 18x11 12. 9x25 24x15 13. 7x16
20x11 14. 25-29 26-22 15. 5-9 32-27 16. 9-14 27-23 17. 12-16 22-18 18. 14-17 18-14 19.
17-21 14-9 20. 29-25 9-5 21. 25-22 5-1 22. 22-17 23-18 23. 17-22 18-14 24. 22-17 14-10 25.
16-19 1-5 26. 17-14 10-7 27. 8-12 15-10 28. 19-23 5-1 29. 13-17 1-5 30. 17-22 11-8 1/2-1/2

I asked Mac Banks about this line, and his response was:

"After 8-11 then I would go 21-17 7-10 17-13 1-6 27-23 16-20 24-19 9-14 18-9 5-14 29-25 4-8 26-22 11-15 25-21 15-24 28-19 3-7 22-18 14-17 21-14 10-17 18-14 8-11 14-9 now sure looks like a white win to me."

I was curious to know if this 8-11 could draw, so I put the 10pc book generator program to work on it. The result is a little surprising. 8-11 is a loss, but not the way I expected it to lose. The strong-looking white attacks of 21-17 and 29-25 do not win. The only move that wins after 8-11 is 24-20!

Bill Carter had the right idea in his game against Harry Meadows. He was in a win until he moved 18-14 at move 23. This allowed Harry to draw. Instead of 18-14, white wins with 1-5, which might continue like this: 1-5 24. 22-17 5-9 25. 8-12 9-5 26. 17-22 18-14 27. 16-19 14-10 28. 19-23 5-9 29. 22-17 10-6 30. 12-16 15-10 31. 16-20 28-24 32. 20x27 31x24 33. 17-22 WW.

I have added the play on 8-11 to the book10 file that is available for download at the kingsrow web site.

-- Ed

[tommyc]

Is this 811?? in the GEMINI 1 still regarded as a loss, i wonder has anyone got an update on it since?

1. 10-14 22-17 2. 11-16 17x10 3. 6x15 23-18 4. 15x22 25x18 5. 8-11??

[Ed Gilbert]

Is this 811?? in the GEMINI 1 still regarded as a loss, i wonder has anyone got an update on it since?

Kingsrow thinks it's a loss. If you think you found a way to draw it, try your play against kingsrow using the auxiliary opening book called book10. It should be able to force you into a loss no matter what you play as black.

-- Ed

[tommyc]

HI Ed...................While im not convinced its a "nailed down win" until i look thru Bolands famous positions ,by the same token i wouldnt take any bets on it that it doesnt lose.When i arrive at the 4x 4 ending position with white having 3kings and a single and red having 2kings and 2 men its pretty precarious but is it a loss.? Theres still work to be done on it,to see if the win CAN be forced.

[WLSC]

After after 1-6, 21-17 how about 7-10? instead of 9-13

Bill

[Mac Banks]

Hello Tommy,

The 8-11 line is a loss. I can send you the play to your email address or you can play the red side and I will definitely show you a white win.

All the best,
Mac

[tommyc]

Yes Mac................id like to seee if the win can be FORCED in the 4x4 ending.

[tommyc]

Im waiting your line Mac....................Tommy.

[Ed Gilbert]

Tommy,

Here is the PV from book10. Where do you want to deviate as black to try to draw? I think book10 has every possible black deviation covered.

1. 10-14 22-17 2. 11-16 17x10 3. 6x15 23-18 4. 15x22 25x18 5. 8-11 24-20 6. 16-19 29-25 7.
3-8 25-22 8. 1-6 21-17 9. 9-13 17-14 10. 6-9 27-24 11. 11-15 18x11 12. 9x25 24x15 13. 7x16
20x11 14. 25-29 26-22 15. 5-9 32-27 16. 9-14 27-23 17. 12-16 22-18 18. 14-17 18-14 19.
17-21 14-9 20. 29-25 9-5 21. 25-22 5-1 22. 22-17 23-18 23. 17-22 1-5 24. 22-17 5-9 25. 8-12
9-5 26. 17-22 18-14 27. 16-19 14-10 28. 19-23 5-9 29. 22-17 10-6 30. 12-16 15-10 31. 16-20
28-24 32. 20x27 31x24 33. 17-22 ww

-- Ed

[Mac Banks]

Hi Tommy,

Sorry, I was waiting for you defense. Start at any point in the opening and send your moves to my email address: mbanks36@hotmail.com.

There is no draw Tommy but will play any defense you think will draw. I think Ed listed the best defense for black and he showed the White win. There are other defenses but white will win even easier.

By the way, Tommy, I miss you on Roberto's checker site.

All the best,
Mac

[liam stephens]

At move 25 how does White meet 17-14 lol (instead of 8-12).

[Ingo_Zachos]

At move 25 how does White meet 17-14 lol (instead of 8-12).

Then a bolt will hit black by 25. ... 9-6!! followed by 26. ... 31-26! and the spectators would be pleased. (White Win)

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Anyway, In my opinon the first moves 1. 10-14 22-17 are not the best, though playable, but 2. 11-16? is a mistake that leaves black with a desaster rather then a position. How about 2.12-16? Looks like a better attempt to lose outright to me.

[liam stephens]

Well spotted Ingo

[vhabgood]

Several questionable moves made in the latter part of the opening. I prefer 7-10 to 8-11 personally. Of course, there are strong attacks against it as well. I believe this opening is drawable for sure.

[Ed Gilbert]

Of course, there are strong attacks against it as well. I believe this opening is drawable for sure.

The Gemini 1 is a draw, but the line given in the original post, 1. 10-14 22-17 2. 11-16 17x10 3. 6x15 23-18 4. 15x22 25x18 5. 8-11, is a loss.

-- Ed