Is this problem original or trifling?

Discussion and analysis about certain positions.

Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby Bill Salot on Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:08 pm

W. T. Call in his "Midget Problems", July 1913, wrote: "To set back a finish a few moves, without concealing the idea in an original way that is crafty and misleading, is trifling."

I believe the finish of this problem was published in every edition of Gould's Problem Book beginning in 1881. I set that problem back 8 moves.

The players at the recent Virginia Tourney were offered the chance to win a choice of out-of-print checker books to the first player to solve it. Several players worked on it before the first round, between rounds, after hours, finally gave up late on the second day, and were then shown the solution.

John Webster, the winner of the Tourney, was the only player to solve it. It took him most of the first day. He said he loved such problems, and declared it very good. He chose as his prize Oldbury's problem book, "The Hand of D. E. O.", 1947.

I doubt that participants on this forum will have the patience to solve it. I'll withdraw that doubt if one of you responds with the solution.

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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby william on Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:22 pm

Good evening

Txs for sharing this very intersting and beautiful problem with us all.


In positions such as these one must know what to look for , that is the essence of playing great

checkers anyway ;

So 7-10 , 13-17 ( as if 24-28 then 10-14 ,13-17, 32-27 , now if 17-22 then 27-23 catches the man and 28-32 only delays the loss of the man in the same way , ie placing the king on 23 ) 10-14 , 17-22 , 14-17 , 22-26, 2925!! the key ; 21x30 , 32-28 , 24-27 , 17-22 , 26-31 , 32-28 wins.

This is a very beautiful construction , but not as difficult as one may think. I have not looked at

the board since december and in less than ten minutes i solved it from diagram!!!

maybe i got lucky lol

Greeting s

William
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby Bill Salot on Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:29 pm

Sorry, William, set it up and play it out. Red has more than one way to draw against your attack.
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:18 pm

I solved it in 20 minutes, but as William mentioned - it took 15 minutes to find a target position (see diagram). The most difficult move to to find was 17-13*

20 minutes is quite a record for me, usually I don't spend too much time on calculations.

Nice training problem, thanks.

White to move and win.
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29-25*
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby william on Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:52 pm

I see Bill!!

yes indeed , I caught a bit of brain bug there!!

We need some more of these problems ,if you please!!

Willaim
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby Jay H on Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:55 pm

william wrote:
We need some more of these problems ,if you please!!

Willaim


Hey William,
I'll take a leap here (and not a very long one...!!!) that you probably just made Bill's day .... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Regards

Jay H
Aut Inveniam Viam Aut Faciam !!!
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby Bill Salot on Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:45 pm

Problems have to be pretty good to serve as an exhibition problem.

The original setting of the above problem was in 1881 (or earlier) by C. M. Wilder, Chelsea, Massachusetts, and appeared as Problem 894 in Gould's Problem book,as follows:

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White to Play and Win

As you can see, the really difficult moves were by Wilder. The question is whether it was "trifling" of me to set Wilder's setting back 8 moves? Did I make it any better?

Alex, you were missed at the Virginia Tourney. It would have interesting to see you and John Webster battle it out in the finals, and to see which of you would have solved the above exhibition problem first.

William, I do have more exhibition problems to post, but not at this time.

Bill Salot (latter day, would be, third rate problemist)
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:27 pm

Bill Salot wrote:Did I make it any better?
Yes, your setting is better and you added more play and variations to original problem. You can sign a new problem as yours and get an ownership.

Congratulations !

Maybe I can make VA next year, everything in hands of God. The Russian quote says:

"If you want to make a God laughing, tell him about your plans for the next 6 months!" :lol:

Alex
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby jaguar72 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:19 am

It is a sublime problem no matter which version you like.

I finally got it but it took a (long) while and, of course, I did not sight-solve it (that is, the "8-moves-back" version). Every pig can occasionally find a truffle, I reckon... .

Thanks, Bill. Always a pleasure.

V/R,

Gary Jenkins/jaguar72
il faut (d'abord) durer...
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby william on Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:43 pm

yes Bill

i agree with Alex,

your setting 8 moves preceding the original must be recognised as "another " original setting ... by you .

the only problem is that one day someone may put yours back another 8 moves , and if this continues we may find ourselves with 12 men each on board as in start position before blacks first move!!!

Now the guy who does this will become even more famous than Tinsley !!!

Greetings

William
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby john reade on Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:43 pm

Wilder's problem also appears in Sturges as Problem 55.
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby Bill Salot on Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:08 pm

John, Thanks for the correction. Assigning proper credit to ancient problems is often a challenge.
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby liam stephens on Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:47 pm

There appears to be some confusion here.

Wilder's problem is by Wilder.
It appears in Kear's edition of Sturges (1899) as problem no 55 (credited to Wilder).

It has nothing to do with the celebrated collection of 150 Critical Situations contained in Sturges 1800 Guide to the Game of Draughts.
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby john reade on Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:51 am

I should have made it clear I was referring to the Kear edition of Sturges.

I have to admit I have never seen the original 1800 edition.
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Re: Is this problem original or trifling?

Postby liam stephens on Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:49 am

There is a copy advertised on the web for $35,000. (going for a song)

Imprint: London, Joshua Sturges, 1800
Edition: First Edition
Binding: Hardback
Inscription: Signed, Inscribed Or Annotated
15.5 x 24.5cm. Signed / autographed by checkerist / author, Ben Boland, on the 3rd blank page. 1st Edition / 1st Printing. Illustrated with an engraved frontis by J. Long, titled "Figure of the Draught Table". Rebound in modern (circa 1940's) medium blue cloth, 2 original blank pages bound in front, 2 original blank pages & 1 marbled page bound in rear. Well margined copy. Good, slight wear at top & bottom of spine, corners slightly bumped, frontis slightly darkened, offsetting / darkening on title-page from frontis engraving. 15.5 x 24.5cm. hard cover. 54pp + 4pp list of subscribers at rear. 10878. Book Condition: Collectible; Good. Binding: Hard Cover. Jacket: No Jacket as Issued

$US 35000.00
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