4 moves restriction mail play.

Discussion and analysis about openings.

4 moves restriction mail play.

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:22 pm

I decided to create a separate topic and copied here my last post. I thought - in what Section I should put it ? Most logical thing would be to have a separate "Mail Play" Section along with "Openings", "Games" etc. Maybe some day we'll get toi this point and require from Jason to add it. Finally I posted it under "Openings". Lets continue conversation here.

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Dennis Cayton wrote:Setting my personal sarcasm aside, with no offense intended, you are correct when you say that I have not shared any of my own ideas in regard to the promotion of Checkers.

To be honest, I don't know what the answer is.

This is all the more reason to encourage the brainstorming of ideas in regard to the promotion of Checkers.
Dear Dennis,

several times on this forum, at least 3 or 4, I posted proposal and idea to re-animate and recover mail play from grave - play 4-moves restrictions ladders. NOONE ever yet responded to me, maybe because this was a REAL and CONSTRUCTIVE idea ? :lol: And here is an area of your expertize as well known outstanding mail player & analyst and your input is highly wanted, very welcome and appreciated.

I am interesting your opinion about this idea. One of the reason I am doing this and trying to promote this idea - mail players are always pioneers :lol: in exploring and developing new play. They did it in front for 3 moves, and finally 12 new barred openings became to arena.

And they can move ahead now !

In other hands, I am absolutely positive that even with having (and using) a strong program, there is still a plenty area for human involve and ONLY program won't help much to be successful.

So ... what do you think ? So far several strong Mail players who is relatively active on this forum - Mac Banks, Tommy Canning, Jim Loy never responded me or add any comments to my proposal.

What do you think about this ?

This is also a question to everyone who reads this and have something to say.

Regards,

Alex
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Re: 4 moves restriction mail play.

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:16 pm

JohnAcker wrote:Alex, do you envision this primarily as an expansion of the barred openings, or perhaps of the tough deck? From what I've seen of the I-D booklets and other mailplay literature, it seems a lot of the alternate attacks and defenses on the critical openings have already been pretty well covered.
You right but this is only truly few lines. They also mostly tried alternative attacks, but not too often - alternative (weaker) defenses. Tommy Canning was one who seriously contributed to inferior lines.

I want to extend study to scientific level of maximum complete coverage.

Some day we'll go for 4-moves restrictions and can save alot of time if send mail players in front us! ... no kidding. Not too many players today study the game seriously, but sooner or later this will be change.

I have a dream ...

Alex
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Re: 4 moves restriction mail play.

Postby Mac Banks on Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:03 am

Alex,

There was a checker player in the 1990's who had already recommended that 4 move restriction checkers be
adopted for mail play. He was passing out his documents to any player that was interested. At the time I
was not interested in his idea as I was trying to sort out the new openings that Dennis Cayton had proposed.
I like the idea now very much. Personally, I would like to see this type of play used for cross board as well
as mail play as everyone would start off a match evenly. When I was in my twenties and attending crossboard
tournies, I was in awe of players that knew more publish play that I who was just starting out in checkers. 4 move restriction checkers would sort of even out the deck. Then a person's true ability could be measured as checkers would not be a game of memory. About 30 years ago, I beat a master player 3 games to none in a tourney . After our match the player told me, Mac, you don't know anything about checkers as you don't put them on the proper publish play. This player was fine as long as your line of play was publish play as he had
remembered a lot of it but once cross board he couldn't see much. Elbert Lowder didn't know much publish play and was very successful crossboard with most of the master players as they were lost when he got them off the book and his crossboard ability allowed him to be successful. This ploy did not work when he played a Tinsley, Lafferty, or a player of that statue as they had the book knowledge as well as the cross board ability. My personall opinion is that we should take the next step and play 4 move restricted checkers at all tournies both crossboard and via mail but I know this won't happen as some players would feel that they no longer have the advantage as they would be starting over and don't have the energy nor desire to learn any more knew play. From what this checker player showed me with his manuscript on the openings of the 4 move restricted checkers, it would be virtually impossible for anyone to memorize the play. Well , you asked for an opinion but I don't expect anyone to take it seriously as we didn't take this checker player seriously in the 1990's Unfortunately, I forg0t the author of the 4 move restricted checkers but he was at most cross board tournies during that time prosposing the changing of the game but I am sure some players remember who he was.

All the best,
Mac
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Re: 4 moves restriction mail play.

Postby rich beckwith on Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:35 am

Thanks for your insights, Mac. I don't object to mail players reviving 4-move restriction if they want. But if a goal is to remove the pp knowledge factor (at a face-to-face tournament), I would prefer seeing the 11-man ballot style promoted.
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Re: 4 moves restriction mail play.

Postby Mac Banks on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:52 pm

Hi John,

Actually no computer can determine a draw at the beginning of the game no matter how strong it is.
When Murray Cash developed Nemesis, the program had a very hard time drawing the opening, for
example, 9-13 2318 1116. The computers have a lot of moves programmed into its user book that allows it to make the right move in the early stages as these moves have been sorted out by humans as well as computers.It is very important in the weak openings to make the first few moves correctly or the program would be in a loss before they could see the lost. Yes, a person having a program available would have an advantage but still losses linger. I like Rich's suggestion that he prefers 11 man ballot. I played in the only National 11 man ballot tourney that was held in Philadelphia in 1973. Derek Oldbury beat me 1--0-3 when he transformed a 11 man ballot game into a position that was a published position. Actually, I enjoyed this tourney more than any crossboard tourney I have ever attended because for the most part I was on an even keel with the player I was playing and the person with the best crossboard advantage won. 4 move restriction checkers is something to be kept on the shelf as it opens up a lot of beautiful checker games but with our attendancew dwindling, even that style of play wouldn't survive without new youth into the game. With the addition of Cayton's new openings, most master players are lost when playing these openings. I watched a few games in Las Vegas at the National tourney and master players were going into losses and their opponent mising the wins. Actually when the game was over, the master player with the advantage finally won as his opponent went into 4 different loses in the same game. So, John, I agree with you that the new openings as plenty hard enough for cross board competition. Mail play for the most part is no longer a viable option as a lot of the previous mail players passed on and the director of mail play is in the hospital. Now, I will probably make some master players mad with my next statement but actually I am talking about what knowledge I have . Alex Moiseyev seems to be ahead of most master playrs on the new openings as he had to do a lot of research when he wrote his book . Now another person, that I feell is very knowledgeable on the new openings is Lindus Edwards. If I were a master player playing him in a tourney I would be very satisfied if I could draw one of the new openings as he has obtained a vast knowledge of the critical openings. There may be more players out there with knowledge of the new openings but I am not aware of them. Well, I am just giving an opinion and I may be wrong so please do not be offended with what I wrote.

All the best,
Mac
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Re: 4 moves restriction mail play.

Postby steve on Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:35 am

How large would the 4 move ballot cards be ? I also vote for 11 man ballot before 4 move.
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Re: 4 moves restriction mail play.

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:11 am

4 moves restriction and 11 man ballot - two different things. 4 moves restrictions has about 500 openings and this deck is better balanced (proportion between critical - non critical openings) than 3 moves - due to even number of moves.

500 openings is still possible to memorize. I am trying to extend game scientifically from what our game fathers did years ago, i am not looking for extra challenge or cross aboard play - we have 11 man ballot for this.

Mac, I am glad to hear that you are also in favor to try 4-moves in mail play. I already sent email to Ed Gilbert who told me that he has a list of openings. For the beginning, we can choose 10-15 most critical openings for mail play.

What do you think will be the best format to play - using email, regular mail, turn base game ?

Again, in different with 11 man ballot, 4-moves restriction is a logical continuation and development of 3 moves restrictions.

Alex
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