Another midgame masterpiece.

Discussion and analysis about certain positions.

Another midgame masterpiece.

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:30 am

Here is another masterpiece from the 8th International match book. In the real game white played 21-17 to draw. When I analysed this position for book - I find out that 24-20 is much stronger and seems to be a win. When I submitted analyses to another person, member of team - he questioned about winning status of 24-20.

Can someone help me with final verdict ?

Image
Can white win after 24-20 ?

Regards,

Alex
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Re: Another midgame masterpiece.

Postby matthewkooshad on Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:50 pm

White has advantage, but I think this position will draw.

After 24-20, I would play 1-5 instead of 11-16 x (allows 18-15).

Alex, will you post the move list of this game :?:
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Re: Another midgame masterpiece.

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:06 pm

Hi, Matthew ! Thanks for quick reply, this is soooooo unusual ! :lol: Your 1-5 is interesting, but still looks suspicious to me. I think after 1-5 white can play 27-24 and 14-17 trade after this should not help you much. What do you think ?

About order of moves .. this information yet is secured and is a property of book team. It will be release along with publishing and delivering book. I don't break any agreement, when I post position standalone here, but order of moves is a great piece of information.

For the same reason I can't tell you even - who played this game, and who had red/white pieces - American or British player. Sorry about this.

But position itself is fantastic. It looks so natural and ... already win (?) for white.

Regards,

Alex
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Re: Another midgame masterpiece.

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:47 pm

2Ed Gilbert: Ed, can you help me with this position ? This is very interesting and important. Correct resolution will help to create another analytical masterpiece.

My personal opinion still the same (unless otherwise prove) - white have a win.

Regards,

Alex
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Re: Another midgame masterpiece.

Postby matthewkooshad on Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:57 pm

Here's some further analysis I will share with you on 10min/move from nem. It seems 11-16 is stronger than early 1-5; follow trade with 3-8.

[FEN "W:W18,21,23,24,26,27,29,30,31:B1,2,3,7,9,11,12,13,14"]
24-20 (+28 white.. varying +27 to +30 until move 14)
11-16 20-11 7-16 18-15 3-8 29-25 16-19
23-16 12-19 15-10 8-12 25-22 (+27 white)
12-16 (+39 white)
27-23 (+28 White)
1-5

I do not care much who played the game; curious how the position arrived.
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Re: Another midgame masterpiece.

Postby Ed Gilbert on Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:46 pm

shr wrote:Ed Gilbert: Ed, can you help me with this position ? This is very interesting and important. Correct resolution will help to create another analytical masterpiece.

My personal opinion still the same (unless otherwise prove) - white have a win.


Kingsrow says it is a white win. It cannot see a conclusive win on a single search, so I put the book generator to work on it. After adding about 30 search scores to the book database it can always force play into a position where the search score is better than -140.

Here is the best line through the book.

[FEN "W:W31,30,29,27,26,24,23,21,18:B14,13,12,11,9,7,3,2,1"]
1. 24-20 11-16 2. 20x11 7x16 3. 18-15 3-8 4. 29-25 1-5 5. 15-10 16-20 6. 23-19 8-11 7. 10-6 11-16 8. 19-15 16-19 9. 15-11 19-24 10. 11-8 24-28 11. 8-4 14-18 12. 4-8 9-14 13. 6-1 0-1

-- Ed
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Re: Another midgame masterpiece.

Postby matthewkooshad on Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:53 pm

Ed Gilbert wrote:[FEN "W:W31,30,29,27,26,24,23,21,18:B14,13,12,11,9,7,3,2,1"]
1. 24-20 11-16 2. 20x11 7x16 3. 18-15 3-8 4. 29-25 1-5(A) 5. 15-10 16-20 6. 23-19 8-11 7. 10-6 11-16 8. 19-15 16-19 9. 15-11 19-24 10. 11-8 24-28 11. 8-4 14-18 12. 4-8 9-14 13. 6-1 0-1

-- Ed

A)
16-19
23-16 12-19 15-10 8-12 25-22 (+27 white)
12-16 (+39 white)
27-23 (+28 White)
1-5
Ed, will you try this move for red instead :?:
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Re: Another midgame masterpiece.

Postby Ed Gilbert on Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:08 pm

Mathew, if I play 16-19 at (a), kingsrow gives a score of around -400 on a minute search. I played a few moves with this result:

[FEN "W:W31,30,29,27,26,24,23,21,18:B14,13,12,11,9,7,3,2,1"]
1. 24-20 11-16 2. 20x11 7x16 3. 18-15 3-8 4. 29-25 16-19 5. 23x16 12x19 6. 15-10 1-5 7. 10-6 2-7 8. 25-22 19-24 9. 27x20 13-17 10. 22x13

If black's play looks a little odd it's probably because it was seeing 'database loss' on its last 5 moves.

-- Ed
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Re: Another midgame masterpiece.

Postby matthewkooshad on Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:20 pm

Ed Gilbert wrote:[FEN "W:W31,30,29,27,26,24,23,21,18:B14,13,12,11,9,7,3,2,1"]
1. 24-20 11-16 2. 20x11 7x16 3. 18-15 3-8 4. 29-25 16-19 5. 23x16 12x19 6. 15-10 1-5(B) 7. 10-6 2-7 8. 25-22 19-24 9. 27x20 13-17 10. 22x13

B)
8-12 25-22 (+27 white)
12-16 (+39 white)
27-23 (+28 White)
1-5
:?:
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Re: Another midgame masterpiece.

Postby Ed Gilbert on Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:53 am

8-12 25-22 (+27 white)
12-16 (+39 white)
27-23 (+28 White)
1-5


Here's what I get using kingsrow with an 8-piece db and 30 second searches:

8-12 25-22 (-210)
12-16 (-230)
27-23 (-258)

Kingsrow scores are positive favoring black, negative favoring white, and 100 points is the value of one man. These scores are conclusive white wins. Are you using an 8-piece database with Nemesis?

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Re: Another midgame masterpiece.

Postby matthewkooshad on Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:55 am

Ok, thanks Ed; it's a 7 piece. I will put in the 8 piece kingsrow and see if it differs for me.
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