10-15 23-18 6-10 New sound play

Discussion and analysis about a full game.

10-15 23-18 6-10 New sound play

Postby Michael Holmes on Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:19 pm

Ed, can you help me with this analysis after move 11 with the 10 piece database and see if red really does have a draw. Thanks Michael

[Event "2003 TN ty 10-15 23-18 6-10"]
[Black "Michael Holmes"]
[White "Keen"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
1. 10-15 23-18 2. 6-10 18-14 3. 9x18 24-19 4. 15x24 22x6 5. 1x10 28x19 6. 11-15 27-24 7. 15-18 31-27 8. 8-11 21-17 9. 10-15 {The best of four possible drawing moves although Basic Checkers disagrees!} 19x10 10. 7x21 26-23 11. 11-15 {2-6 12-16 or 4-8 all draw according to KingsRow 1.14p. Incredible!} 23x14 {Im not sure if this is a loss here or not-old notes as this is a draw} 12. 3-7 {a suspect move but I am under the impression this and 12-16 draw with 12-16 being better} 25-22 13. 12-16 22-17 14. 7-11 {until now, april 2005, I always thought I was in a loss here and was lucky to get out....But KingsRow 1.14p with an 8 piece database shows this as a draw so I corrected published play while playing across the board!} 14-10 {the strongest move according to a very deep search by the computers} 15. 16-19 32-28 {17-13 is stronger but it is still a draw} 16. 19-23 27x18 17. 15x22 17-13 18. 11-15 {it is an obvious draw here and he offers one. I accept it of course!} 1/2-1/2
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Is move number 12 a draw for red (3-7)

Postby Michael Holmes on Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:59 am

Hi Ed, it is me again. After reviewing this game many times I was surprised that I still asked the wrong question. Does move 12 (3-7) draw for red?

Thanks,
Michael
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Re: 10-15 23-18 6-10 New sound play

Postby Jake Lopez on Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:20 am

[Event "2003 TN ty 10-15 23-18 6-10"]
[Date ""]
[Black "Michael Holmes"]
[White "Keen"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
1. 10-15 23-18 2. 6-10 18-14 3. 9x18 24-19 4. 15x24 22x6 5. 1x10 28x19 6. 11-15 27-24 7.
15-18 31-27 8. 8-11 21-17 9. 10-15
{The best of four possible drawing moves although Basic Checkers disagrees!} 19x10
10. 7x21 26-23 11. 11-15
{2-6 12-16 or 4-8 all draw according to KingsRow 1.14p. Incredible!} 23x14
{Im not sure if this is a loss here or not-old notes as this is a draw} 12. 3-7
{a suspect move but I am under the impression this and 12-16 draw with 12-16 being better}
25-22 13. 12-16 22-17 14. 7-11
{until now, april 2005, I always thought I was in a loss here and was lucky to get out....But KingsRow 1.14p with an 8 piece database shows this as a draw so I corrected published play while playing across the board!}
14-10 {the strongest move according to a very deep search by the computers} 15.
16-19 32-28 {17-13 is stronger but it is still a draw} 16. 19-23 27x18 17. 15x22 17-13
18. 11-15 {it is an obvious draw here and he offers one. I accept it of course!}
24-19 19. 15x24 28x19 20. 5-9 13x6 21. 2x9 19-15 22. 9-14 10-6 23. 14-18 6-2 24. 18-23 2-6
25. 22-26 15-11 26. 26-31 11-7 27. 31-27 7-3 28. 23-26 30x23 29. 27x18 6-9 30. 18-22 9-13
31. 21-25 13-17 32. 22x13 29x22 33. 13-9 22-18 34. 9-13 18-15 35. 13-17 15-11 36. 17-14
11-7 37. 14-18 7-2 38. 18-15 2-7 39. 15-18 7-10 40. 18-23 10-15 41. 23-27 3-7 42. 27-31
7-11 43. 31-27 15-19 44. 27-32 11-16 45. 32-27 16-11 46. 27-32 WW
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Re: 10-15 23-18 6-10 New sound play

Postby matthewkooshad on Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:55 am

Jake, is this play that you added? At 37. 14-18?, 14-9 will draw.
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Re: 3-7 draw?

Postby Ed Gilbert on Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:49 am

Hi Michael,

> Does move 12 (3-7) draw for red?

Yes, 3-7 draws. Kingsrow continues the game like this.

12. 3-7 25-22 13. 12-16 22-17 14. 7-11 14-10 15. 16-19 24-20 16. 5-9 10-7 17. 9-13 17-14 18. 19-24 7-3 19. 24x31 3-7 20. 11-16 20x11 21. 15-19 14-9 1/2-1/2

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Re: 10-15 23-18 6-10 New sound play

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:45 am

Michael Holmes wrote:17-13 is stronger but it is still a draw


I agree that this might be a draw, but this would be my first chocie here. On any human consideration - this is (17-13) most "poisen", danger move which require from red very good cross aboard skills and end-game knoweldges to draw it.

White to move.
Image
17-13*
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Re: 10-15 23-18 6-10 New sound play

Postby Michael Holmes on Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:25 pm

Thanks Ed. I really appreciate the play you have provided. I have wondered a long time about that cross move and I appreciate your feedback on that and this game. Can you send me your email address. Mine is michaelholmes@insightbb.com

moiseyev, thanks for sending the move 17-13 as that is a typical move that we humans would make.....try to send follow up play as a one move suggestion does not go far.
Michael
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Re: 10-15 23-18 6-10 New sound play

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:58 pm

Michael Holmes wrote:try to send follow up play


Hi, Michael ! I like challenge, especially not an easy one. First time I thought - it is impossible for me to provide reasonable arguments, because position is drawn. But then I find a way :idea:

Instead sending strong play for both sides, I decided to generate sort of "cooperative play" - find a losing possiblilities for red, and I was successful !

Look at diagram #1. This is position which happened after 17-13 19-28 10-6 2-9 13-6 From this point I am giving you here 6 possible losing red continuations

#1. Red to move
Image

1. 5-9
2. 4-8 6-2 8-12
3. 11-16 6-2 15-18
4. 11-16 6-2 16-20
5. 15-18 6-2 11-15
6. 15-18 6-2 11-16

You can tell me that technically #3 and #6 is the same, and I agree ! But in real game, when human thinks separately on each move - these are two different ways to play !

And finally - I am giving you one drawn line :lol: going into technical database draw:

4-8 6-2 15-19 2-7 11-16 7-10 16-20 27-24 20-27 32-16 ...

See diagram #2. Do you think it is an obvious fact :lol: , that the only way to draw it is 8-12 16-11 5-9 and any other move loses for red ?

#2. Red to move and draw
Image
8-12*

****************************************************************************

There are couple more good for white drawn endings arize from diagram #1, but I don't want to make it more complicated. Just demonstrated the strength and dangerity of move 17-13.
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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