Photos from Beijing

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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby tommyc on Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:06 pm

Two old codgers doing a bit of back-slapping hehehehe............move on guys........ The Russian and British Empires have long fallen,................GET OVER IT

PS................and Alex had a distinct advanage in China!!!
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby liam stephens on Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:05 pm

John there is one point where I might agree with you:

Dinosaurs obviously never played 100 squares, or chess.


Well, of course, since they are inferior games.

Refer to Derek Oldbury’s critique of (so called) “International Checkers” - as proposed in a booklet by Herman Hoogland of Holland, where he outlined a plan for standardising the game throughout the world, based on a random selection of ideas from the various kinds of Draughts.

See article entitled “International Checkers” in the magazine A Game of Draughts
Vol 1, No 4, Mar-Apr 1947.


With cogent and reasoned arguments he demonstrates that the game of English Draughts is superior
to any of the variants.

Here are a few of his conclusions:

Therefore; such rules as “long Kings” horizontal and vertical captures by the Kings, and backward captures by the men ; all tend to produce a game which is less scientific, and which therefore demands less skill and perception from the player than does the game as we know it.

In “International Checkers” positional play becomes subordinate to stroke and shot play ; the gaining of material being practically the sole method of winning; and end-game play, which in English Draughts attains heights of unsurpassed beauty, disappears almost entirely in the welter of
“long Kings “ dashing madly from one region of the board to another.
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby william on Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:14 pm

Personally I didn't even notice the black and white men ; I was too busy admiring the good looking guy on the left hehehehe ; .... for those who don't know , it is actually me on picture left , and I am married with two kids LOL.

John Reade is correct ; once your head is down over the board and you are deep in profound calculations ( this part is difficult for most , and is probably why a change of colour would be distracting for them ) then everything becomes quite naturally a single entity , ; board and men , and you could paint the board the colour of John Lennon's Rolls Royce, put banannas from 1 to 12 and jelly beans from 21 to 32 IT WOULD NOT CHANGE A THING , to those of course who are able to concentrate on the abstract and not the material .

I loved playing on the chinese's black and white men and boards , and even the cracks on the pieces did not bother me.

Christmas greetings to all

William docherty
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:42 pm

liam stephens wrote:Here are a few of his conclusions:

Therefore; such rules as “long Kings” horizontal and vertical captures by the Kings, and backward captures by the men ; all tend to produce a game which is less scientific, and which therefore demands less skill and perception from the player than does the game as we know it.

In “International Checkers” positional play becomes subordinate to stroke and shot play ; the gaining of material being practically the sole method of winning; and end-game play, which in English Draughts attains heights of unsurpassed beauty, disappears almost entirely in the welter of “long Kings “ dashing madly from one region of the board to another.
WOW ! The only reasonable excuse for DEO with such untrue statement could be - he was relatively young in 1947 and never played 10x10 games seriously and professionally.

With all my honesty I can confirm that 10x10 game is much richer than any other form of game on board 8x8, including Anglo-American Draughts, Russian-Brazilian Checkers, Italian Checkers etc.

DEO in his young years sometimes made very controversial statements.

Regards,

Alex
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby liam stephens on Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:08 pm

Thank you Alex, for your comments.

A couple of points:

1. Perhaps I did not make it sufficiently clear that Hoogland’s proposals for an “International Checkers” is not the same game as the Polish 10X10 game, which I understand is also referred to as International Draughts. Hoogland’s proposals included for example the vertical and horizontal captures by Kings allowed in Turkish Draughts and was in Oldbury’s words a case of “mixing them together in a hodge-podge of inconsistencies”.

2. The two brief extracts quoted can only give the flavour of the entire article. For example much of the argument is centered on what is “the most scientific way of playing Draughts”. In contrast to Chess “the power of the pieces is correctly reduced to a minimum: the men being able to move one square only and to capture forwards only; whilst the Kings do not possess more than twice the power of the men. Any innovations which increase the power of the pieces must necessarily react unfavourably on the science of the game , bringing it nearer to the chaos previously outlined ”.

I would recommend readers to view the entire article which unfortunately I do not have the time to type out in full.

In later years Oldbury contributed significantly to the other versions of Draughts in his magazine
The Square World.
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby tommyc on Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:32 pm

Knowledge is everything Liam.....green and white ...............power.
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby liam stephens on Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:41 pm

Yes Tommy, us dinosaurs have to stick together. :)
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby tommyc on Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:47 pm

Hmmmmmmmmm....you know i been thinking abt that............playing on the WHITE squares is very innovative!!You know confuse the opposition kinda thing......hmm you must bring it up at the nxt WCDF meeting!!See if yu geta seconder.

If not get the Chinese chocolates out ,and we ll have a game.
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby liam stephens on Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:57 pm

Well Tommy, I'm partial to chocolates - remember "any time is urney time" !

PS - Did you know Barrack Obama's ancestors came from ireland, so a presidential visit is in the offing sometime soon.
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby Ingo_Zachos on Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:17 pm

william wrote:...

I loved playing on the chinese's black and white men and boards , and even the cracks on the pieces did not bother me.

Christmas greetings to all

William docherty



William, you got the point.
The event was the strongest in years, but the equipment did not match this, as they were broken.
I, and I think we can surely say, most players, would have preferred pieces without holes and cracks.

I think it does not matter what color the pieces and boards have for visualisation, as long as they r decent.
Both regular boards and the boards they use in draughts 64 r good, though the players in Germany that played both styles and boards preferred the regular pieces and boards ("Those colors r cool"), and I think they (regular colors)would have made the event in Beijing even more attractive and would have made it easier to attract attention.
I believe that the rules should also allow "black and white" board and pieces (though, in real tournament play either the pieces r yellow and black/brown or the board is white and brown/green in competitions to makle it a better contrast), as in most countries these boards r alreday availabe.

I personally prefer regular colors, and recommend to use numbered boards, as the players can't tell 11-15 from 22-18, even the very best!

To compare the complexity of Draughts 100 or Chess to Checkers is unfair, as would be to compare the compexity of Go to Chess and Draughts 100.
Complexity is only one aspect.
The beauty does not always lie in complexity, and the rules make all draught styles different, but I would not say, inferior.

As a pun I could say : does size matter?

I think all styles of draughts are "individuals", with different features and different attraction.
Just like Go and Chess and Draughts r in no way inferior to each other, the styles of Draughts r not inferior to one another, and we really should not waste our time to discuss which is "better", but rather learn from one another.

Greetinx from Dortmund at night,

Ingo Zachos

P.S: Still working on the games from Beijing, the date for the German Open (Venue will be Korbach again), the English Version of the German Open 2007 bulletin and hope to answer a few emails I recently got, provided I can spare the time.
You can rent this space for advertising, if you like!
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby MostFamousDane on Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:52 am

Alex_Moiseyev wrote:
liam stephens wrote:Here are a few of his conclusions:

Therefore; such rules as “long Kings” horizontal and vertical captures by the Kings, and backward captures by the men ; all tend to produce a game which is less scientific, and which therefore demands less skill and perception from the player than does the game as we know it.

In “International Checkers” positional play becomes subordinate to stroke and shot play ; the gaining of material being practically the sole method of winning; and end-game play, which in English Draughts attains heights of unsurpassed beauty, disappears almost entirely in the welter of “long Kings “ dashing madly from one region of the board to another.
WOW ! The only reasonable excuse for DEO with such untrue statement could be - he was relatively young in 1947 and never played 10x10 games seriously and professionally.

With all my honesty I can confirm that 10x10 game is much richer than any other form of game on board 8x8, including Anglo-American Draughts, Russian-Brazilian Checkers, Italian Checkers etc.

DEO in his young years sometimes made very controversial statements.

Regards,

Alex


Hi Alex

The arguments given by DEO seems very compelling - do you actually have any counterarguments ? or is your opinion based solely on emotions :D.

International Draughts always seemed to be more like chess to me in while it is bigger it is less profound and deep but I could be wrong - I often am :).
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby john reade on Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:33 am

Sune,
I would imagine that Alex's opinion is based on his experience of playing 100-squares at grandmaster level. Since the rest of us have hardly played 100-squares at all we are not really qualified to comment. And that includes Derek Oldbury.
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby liam stephens on Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:45 am

Hi Sune,

The full force of Oldbury's arguments in the the complete article are indeed compelling and cannot entirely be dismissed as him being provocative.

Later today, if i get time, I will try and scan the complete article and show it on site, as the topic seems to be of considerable interest.

Regards - Liam.
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby MostFamousDane on Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:05 am

john reade wrote:Sune,
I would imagine that Alex's opinion is based on his experience of playing 100-squares at grandmaster level. Since the rest of us have hardly played 100-squares at all we are not really qualified to comment. And that includes Derek Oldbury.
John.


Hi John

If I'm only qualified to comment on something if I know absolutely everything about it - then I wouldn't be able to comment on anything at all :).

But OK to follow your logic I will say that Alex is not qualified to comment on the differences between 8x8 and 10x10 since he is not world champion in 10x10.
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Re: Photos from Beijing

Postby liam stephens on Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:55 am

Yes Sune,
To say that only grandmasters in a particular sport are competent to comment is a specious argument indeed.
If that were so, probably 80% or more of television sports commentators would be out of a job.
(it certainly didn't stop Torvill and Dean :D )
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