New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Discussion and analysis about openings.

New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby tommyc on Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:16 pm

WILDERNESS2 THE 7-11 DEFENCE
Some good news at last. After a series of analysis on the 7-11 defence in the Wilderness2 and i know Jim Loy had been working on this last yr as well. Neither of us (as far as i know) came to a satisfactory conclusion on this,altho i thought id improved Jim effort Myles Hannigan slammed the door on that recently when we were discussing it.Its been back to the drawning board since and hopefully this time it is resolved .Some might say (quite rightly) that its just a secondary defence and a poor one at that, but i like to see all things have theyr rightful place IF its possible and all doors open.I know i had announced some time ago that the 7-11 defence was in jeapordy but now i think thats old news.

I know Jim Loy had commented that white cannot leave the man on 22 and with that said i though well........i wont let the man off a sq22!!!! That cracked the nut, so in a round-about way Jim had a hand in it too.Here is the conclusion you can access the run-up in Cannings Compilation p60-61 Var. 7A

See "Cannings Compilation" page 60-61 var7A...notes (b1)(c) (c1)

13-17*, 19-16, 20-24*, 15-11, 6-10, 16-12, 5-9(a), 12-8, 17-21*(a), 25-22, 9-13(a)**, 22-18, 2-6, 8-3, 6-9, 11-7 or 29-25Drawn


(a)The move order of these pieces it what makes the draw possible.

The problem with programmes is it cant compute it far enough away and therefore takes the easy option from a distance with can lead to losses or poor lines.Another thing is the prog is reading such a low plus or minus score/reading that it wont consider a line that is above or below that number at a particular point in the analysis,therefore lead to losses or even missing the draw....................Tommy Canning
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby Mac Banks on Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:30 pm

Hello Tommy,

The 7-11 draw is not new as Nemesis said this move was sound in 2002. Also , Lindus Edwards and I used this move to a drawn match during our many practice games. I don't have your compliation but I suspect your draw is similiar to the one that Nemeis came up with or the one that Lindus and I used. Send me the line at mbanks36@hotmail.com and I will report back on this site if your draw is any different that the ones I am talking about.

All the best,
Mac
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby tommyc on Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:46 pm

What a guy ....theres no beating you Mac.!!! Well ive said this before even in my book...grrrrrrr
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby Mac Banks on Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:09 pm

Hello Tommy,

Thanks for the kind words but I am still looking for the win against your play on the opening 1116 2319 1623 when you surprised me with new play in 2001. I knew the position would draw as it was in Boland's famous positions but you drew the ending different than Boland did. Now all of the top players and computer programs are using your draw. I spent many hours trying to win that position but you did your homework well and that is why I told you I thought you were better than any other player I was playing as you are so creative. I sent you an email and hope you got it.

All the best,
Mac
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby tommyc on Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:16 pm

Thanks Mac............Yes your draw in the 7-11 is different (a different line )

Hmm ive not actually looked at that draw i played on you in the 1116 2319 since believe it or not!!
You think its worth another look??
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby Mac Banks on Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:22 pm

Hello Tommy,

No, you don't have to revisit that play as it is very sound!! I have played it many times since and have given up on their being a win for red. I used your play myself if someone attacks me the way we played it.

All the best,
Mac
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby tommyc on Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:29 pm

Aye in the 1116 2319 Mac ,good,well Hellman as you had given up on the line to draw a long time ago,thinking it was a red win.I did spent alota time at it in 02? ironing out all the nooks and crannys.
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby tommyc on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:05 pm

9-13, 23-18, 11-16, 18-14, 10-17, 21-14, 6-9, 22-18, 7-11, 24-20,
11-15, 18-11, 8-15, 20-11, 9-18, 26-22, 12-16, 27-24, 1-6, 31-26,
16-20, 24-19, 15-24, 22-15, 3-7, 28-19, 7-23, 26-19,

See "Cannings Compilation" page 60-61 var7A...notes (b1)(c) (c1)

13-17*, 19-16, 20-24, 15-11, 6-10, 16-12, 5-9(a), 12-8, 17-21*(a), 25-22(a1!), 9-13(a)**, 22-18, 2-6, 8-3, 6-9, 11-7 or 29-25Drawn (a)The move order of these pieces it what makes the draw.

CORRECTION OF NEW DRAW IN THE WILDERNESS2 711..DEFENCE

(Apologies for a rush of blood to the head.!!)


(a1!) if 8-3* here instead........then 9-13 doesnt do and red if forced 10-14 or 1015 back into the known loss.!!


So with a clear head a good sleep 24 hrs later this is the real draw.............there was some doubt whether after 2724 was it 1-6 or 5-9 correct to draw,well maybe now with this line they will both draw provided one piece backs the other up ,whichever is played first.!!.

**CORRECTION TO ABOVE PLAY**

See "Cannings Compilation" page 60-61 var7A...notes (b1)(c) (c1)

1317* 1916 2024*(stops 3227) 1511 and the win-breaker 6-9**(backing up the man on sq5 ..610??WW) 2521 1722(not 2-6)2117 913 1714 and 2226 pitch!!...3023 2427 2319/1612 2731 and red a man down achieves the draw with the power of the King...........And if white should over play it in his dissapointment .....winning chance for red!!T.Canning.
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby Ed Gilbert on Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:35 pm

tommyc wrote: **CORRECTION TO ABOVE PLAY**

See "Cannings Compilation" page 60-61 var7A...notes (b1)(c) (c1)

1317* 1916 2024*(stops 3227) 1511 and the win-breaker 6-9**(backing up the man on sq5 ..610??WW) 2521 1722(not 2-6)2117 913 1714 and 2226 pitch!!...3023 2427 2319/1612 2731 and red a man down achieves the draw with the power of the King...........And if white should over play it in his dissapointment .....winning chance for red!!T.Canning.

Kingsrow disagrees. After 6-9, instead of 25-21 it plays 16-12 to a white win.

1. 9-13 23-18 2. 11-16 18-14 3. 10x17 21x14 4. 6-9 22-18 5. 7-11 24-20 6. 11-15 18x11 7. 8x15 20x11 8. 9x18 26-22 9. 12-16 27-24 10. 1-6 31-26 11. 16-20 24-19 12. 15x24 22x15 13. 3-7 28x19 14. 7x23 26x19 15. 13-17 19-16 16. 20-24 15-11 17. 6-9 16-12 18. 9-14 12-8 19. 5-9 25-21 {WW}

But though 6-9 loses at move 17, 6-10 draws.

1. 9-13 23-18 2. 11-16 18-14 3. 10x17 21x14 4. 6-9 22-18 5. 7-11 24-20 6. 11-15 18x11 7.
8x15 20x11 8. 9x18 26-22 9. 12-16 27-24 10. 1-6 31-26 11. 16-20 24-19 12. 15x24 22x15 13.
3-7 28x19 14. 7x23 26x19 15. 13-17 19-16 16. 20-24 15-11 17. 6-10 16-12 18. 17-21 12-8 19.
10-15 8-3 20. 15-19 3-7 21. 19-23 25-22 22. 24-27 {draw}

-- Ed
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby tommyc on Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:23 pm

Yes Ed,
I agree which answers two questions ,that 1-6*@ the 10th mv.. is the draw and 5-9? loses ..................... holding back 5-9(at all times) after the correct 1-6* (@10th mv) and red crowning on sq31 1st leads to the sound draw. As if the 5-9? (after 1-6*)then white gains a move to crown on sq3 and be on time with his King to go,sq3*/8*/12*/and 16* and thus preventing the red king from getting out*,(which was the crux of the matter),and assuring the win.Where-as not moving 5-9 at all leads to the draw. I guess i should have "checked out the "old line" first, for errors.
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby Ed Gilbert on Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:00 pm

Tommy,

There is another way to draw 1. 9-13 23-18 2. 11-16 18-14 3. 10x17 21x14 4. 6-9 22-18 5. 7-11. After white plays 24-20 (the strongest attack), black can draw with 16-19.

1. 9-13 23-18 2. 11-16 18-14 3. 10x17 21x14 4. 6-9 22-18 5. 7-11 24-20 6. 16-19 27-24 7.
11-15 18x11 8. 8x15 14-10 9. 2-7 20-16 10. 7x14 25-22 11. 14-18 29-25 12. 9-14 16-11 13.
5-9 24-20 14. 1-5 32-27 15. 14-17 11-7 16. 3x10 25-21 17. 18x25 21x7 18. 15-18 30x21 19.
18-22 26x17 20. 13x22 {draw}

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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby tommyc on Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:26 pm

Thanks Ed.........

In my Compilation I is showed this with a slightly diff order played by Bill Carter of Canada with Mac Banks in their WCM Mail match 2006
if 16-19* Forms Diagram….

27-23(B) 11-15(C) 23-16 12-19 18-11 8-15 14-10 9-14(D) 20-16 2-7 25-22 14-18 29-25 7-14 16-11 14-17 11-7 3-10 25-21 18-25 21-7 15-18 30-21 18-22 26-17 13-2232-27 5-9 21-17 22-25 7-2 25-29 2-7 9-13 draw W. Carter – M. Banks, 2006 World Mail Championship

B – off var8…..(1410!!also drs)

C –off Var8,……. 3-7 23-16 12-19 32-27 8-12 27-24 19-23 26-19 11-16 20-117-23 25-22 2-7 24-19 1-6 19-15 7-11 15-8 4-11 28-24 23-26 30-2311-15 18-11 9-27 24-20 27-32 11-7 32-28 7-3 28-24 3-7 24-19 22-18 draw, Kingsrow v G. I. Miller, 2002 Banks Ladder.
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby Ed Gilbert on Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:22 pm

Hi Tommy,

Yes, those are all good draws after 7-11.

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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby tommyc on Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:49 pm

Thanks Ed.!!
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Re: New Draw in the Wilderness 2 ...7-11 defence.

Postby tommyc on Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:07 pm

A NEW MOVE ON WILDERNESS 2 OF THE DODGY 7-11 DEFENCE…..............SEE 18-23**.

AMONG SOME OF THE NEW PLAY FOR INSERTION IN THE" EXTENDED" CANNINGS COMP NOW 116 PAGES.

9-13, 23-18, 11-16, 18-14, 10-17, 21-14, 6-9, 22-18, 7-11, 24-20,
11-15, 18-11, 8-15, 20-11, 9-18, 26-22, 1-6*, 27-24, 18-23**(1),.............

22-18, 15-22, 25-18, 5-9*, 29-25, 6-10(var1), 25-22?(instead 1815exchange wins for white), 10-14, 24-19, 14-17, 28-24,
17-26, 31-22, 3-8, 19-15, 12-16, 24-19, 16-20, 11-7, 2-11, 19-16,
20-24, 16-7, 8-11, 15-8, 4-11, 7-3, 24-27, 3-7, 11-16, 30-25, 27-31,
25-21, 23-26, 7-10, 26-30, 10-14, 30-25, 14-5, 16-19, 5-1, 19-23,
1-6, 31-27, 6-10, 27-24, 10-15, 23-26, 32-28, 24-27, 15-10, 27-23,
10-14, 23-19, 14-9, 19-23, 9-14...........looks a white win

(1) Giving red winning chances maybe???

var1......13-17, 25-21, 17-22, 21-17, 9-13*, 17-14,
23-26*, 30-23, 13-17,white has a few ways from here !! 24-19, 17-21, 19-15, 21-25, 23-19, 25-30, 28-24,
30-26, 11-8, 4-11, 15-8, 6-10, 14-7, 2-11, 8-4, 11-16, 19-15, 16-19, 32-28, 26-23, 18-14, 23-27, 24-20, 27-23, 14-9, 23-18, 15-11, 18-23, drawn tc

Having had a closer look we can discount the 6-10?? line of trunk it seems to lose to 1815xx,that leaves (13-17 of var1)another 13-17!!! is the only option..... but it is good enough!! YES.


COMMENTS ,OPINIONS AND ANALYSIS WELCOME AND THOUGHTS ON LINE PREFERENCE!!
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