The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Discussion and analysis about openings.

The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:12 am

While preparing for the 3-moves USA National 2008, I came across a wonderful Tommy Canning Compilation. Here is what I find ...

On the top of Pg. 65 Tommy wrote about this questionable jump: "Thought to lose but my unpublished analyses here shows a sound draw. I have great hopes that this will remain a draw ..." Well, sometimes our dreams materialize, sometimes - fallen :roll: It was an easy task for me to research this mystery, because as usually in his book, Tommy provides all play known to him.

I still do not recall the entire 7-14 line as lost, but at least my research shows that Tommy missed one important and strong possibility for white.

9-13 23-19 10-15 19-10 7-14?! 27-23 5-9 22-18 3-7 25-22 6-10 ... see diagram

White to move
Image
32-27* seems to win

In this position Tommy covered two attacks for white: 30-25 and 24-20 and showed a draw in both cases. My analyses with Kingsrow 10 pieces database show a definite win after 32-27 ! Tommy wrote: "Comments and feedback welcome!" So say I :D
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby Mac Banks on Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:39 pm

Hello Alex,

Yes, the position that you show on the Garter Snake is a loss. I am sure Tommy knows this and wouldn't take the 7-14 jump.
Here is the play I have on that position.

9-13 2319 1015 1910 7-14 2723 5-9 2218 3-7 2522 6-10 2419!!(this is the best move here in my mind, I have never looked at the 3227 move here but the play probably run along the same lines) 1-5 3227 (I like playing this move at this point), 1115 1811, 8-24, 2819, 1417 2114, 9-25, 2922, 7-11 (all moves bad here), 2218 2-7 2622, 1116 1815, 1014, 2724, 1418 (nothing better) 2314, 1623 2420, 1317 2213 4-8 1410! 7-14 13-9 14-18 9-6 White Wins as piece on 8 cannot be protected. Alex, I will be in Las Vegas in the afternoon of Tuesday as I will be in Los Angeles until then and am looking forward to seeing you again. My stragedy has always been to take the best move on the weaker side and to experiment with the stronger side as I would have a better chance to at least draw from the stronger side.

All the best,
Mac
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby MostFamousDane on Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:47 pm

Alex_Moiseyev wrote:While preparing for the 3-moves USA National 2008, I came across a wonderful Tommy Canning Compilation. Here is what I find ...

On the top of Pg. 65 Tommy wrote about this questionable jump: "Thought to lose but my unpublished analyses here shows a sound draw. I have great hopes that this will remain a draw ..." Well, sometimes our dreams materialize, sometimes - fallen :roll: It was an easy task for me to research this mystery, because as usually in his book, Tommy provides all play known to him.

I still do not recall the entire 7-14 line as lost, but at least my research shows that Tommy missed one important and strong possibility for white.

9-13 23-19 10-15 19-10 7-14?! 27-23 5-9 22-18 3-7 25-22 6-10 ... see diagram

White to move
Image
32-27* seems to win

In this position Tommy covered two attacks for white: 30-25 and 24-20 and showed a draw in both cases. My analyses with Kingsrow 10 pieces database show a definite win after 32-27 ! Tommy wrote: "Comments and feedback welcome!" So say I :D


how about 11-16 ? like this: 9-13 23-19 10-15 19-10 7-14?! 27-23 5-9 22-18 11-16, 25-22 2-7 24-19 8-11 32-27 16-20 22-17 13-22 26-17-10 6-15-24 28-19 11-16 21-17 7-10 17-13 9-14 18-9 4-8 29-25 8-11 25-22 11-15 27-24 20-27 31-24 16-20 23-18 20-27 18-11 10-14 19-15 27-31 15-10 14-17 22-18 17-22 11-8 31-27 9-6 12-16 8-4 27-24 6-2 22-26 30-23 24-19 2-7 19-26 18-15 1-6 10-1 3-10-19
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby MostFamousDane on Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:50 pm

Mac Banks wrote:Hello Alex,

Yes, the position that you show on the Garter Snake is a loss. I am sure Tommy knows this and wouldn't take the 7-14 jump.
Here is the play I have on that position.

9-13 2319 1015 1910 7-14 2723 5-9 2218 3-7 2522 6-10 2419!!(this is the best move here in my mind, I have never looked at the 3227 move here but the play probably run along the same lines) 1-5 3227 (I like playing this move at this point), 1115 1811, 8-24, 2819, 1417 2114, 9-25, 2922, 7-11 (all moves bad here), 2218 2-7 2622, 1116 1815, 1014, 2724, 1418 (nothing better) 2314, 1623 2420, 1317 2213 4-8 1410! 7-14 13-9 14-18 9-6 White Wins as piece on 8 cannot be protected. Alex, I will be in Las Vegas in the afternoon of Tuesday as I will be in Los Angeles until then and am looking forward to seeing you again. My stragedy has always been to take the best move on the weaker side and to experiment with the stronger side as I would have a better chance to at least draw from the stronger side.

All the best,
Mac


How about this for a win after 3-7 ?

1. 9-13 23-19 2. 10-15 19-10 3. 7-14 27-23 4. 5-9 22-18 5. 3-7 25-22 6. 6-10 32-27 7. 12-16 24-20 8. 16-19 23-16 9. 14-23-32 16-12 10. 9-14 12-3 11. 1-6 29-25 12. 11-15 26-23 13. 4-8 3-12 14. 14-18 23-14 15. 10-17-26 30-23 16. 6-9 12-8 17. 7-10 8-11 18. 15-19 23-16 19. 9-14 11-7 20. 2-11 16-7
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby Mac Banks on Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:31 pm

Hello Sune,

Nice hearing from you. Let me clearify what I said in my earlier posts. I didn't say that Alex's 32-27 wouldn't win but just preferred 24-19 but you could tell from my moves that my next move was 32-27. I was just commenting on Alex's position and not the 7-14 move itself other than as I said in my stragedy of checkers that I look for the best move only when playing the weak side but experiment with other than the best move on the strongest side trying to get my opponent into unfamiliar territory. I have thousands of variations on the garter snake in a box so will have to pull out the play and look at the 7-14 move from my notes. A few years ago, some of the top players thought the 7-14 jump would draw but I prefer the 6-15 jump and have never lost with it so will not change until someone beats me. For example, when playing the Twilight Zone opening the 8-15 and 7-16 jump both draws and I spent several years only playing the 8-15 jump and it is okay to play that move via mail but I am convinced that if I had to play that opening via crossboard I would only take the 7-16 jump as there are just too many attacks an opponent can take when jumping 8-15. Remember, when playing via mail, you can take your move back before you send the move if you don't like what is going on but when sitting across the board you have to go with the move you make. Sune, I will take a look at your 11-16 defense .

Sune, are you coming to Las Vegas next week?

All the best,
Mac
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby MostFamousDane on Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:04 pm

Mac Banks wrote:Hello Sune,

Nice hearing from you. Let me clearify what I said in my earlier posts. I didn't say that Alex's 32-27 wouldn't win but just preferred 24-19 but you could tell from my moves that my next move was 32-27. I was just commenting on Alex's position and not the 7-14 move itself other than as I said in my stragedy of checkers that I look for the best move only when playing the weak side but experiment with other than the best move on the strongest side trying to get my opponent into unfamiliar territory. I have thousands of variations on the garter snake in a box so will have to pull out the play and look at the 7-14 move from my notes. A few years ago, some of the top players thought the 7-14 jump would draw but I prefer the 6-15 jump and have never lost with it so will not change until someone beats me. For example, when playing the Twilight Zone opening the 8-15 and 7-16 jump both draws and I spent several years only playing the 8-15 jump and it is okay to play that move via mail but I am convinced that if I had to play that opening via crossboard I would only take the 7-16 jump as there are just too many attacks an opponent can take when jumping 8-15. Remember, when playing via mail, you can take your move back before you send the move if you don't like what is going on but when sitting across the board you have to go with the move you make. Sune, I will take a look at your 11-16 defense .

Sune, are you coming to Las Vegas next week?

All the best,
Mac


Hi Mac

Just to clearify my earlier post(s) It seems to me that 3-7 is a losing move : 9-13 23-19 10-15 19-10 7-14 27-23 5-9 22-18 3-7 - loses by 25-22 6-10 - here seems to be several ways to win:

1. 24-19 as you showed.

2. 32-27 12-16 24-20 16-19 23-16 14-23-32 16-12 9-14 12-3 1-6 29-25 11-15 26-23 4-8 3-12 14-18 23-14 10-17-26 30-23 6-9 12-8 7-10 8-11 15-19 23-16 9-14 11-7 2-11 16-7

3. 30-25 12-16 32-27 1-6 18-15 11-18 22-15 10-19 24-15 7-11 26-22 11-18 22-15 8-12 27-24 16-19 23-16 12-19 15-11 19-23 25-22 23-26 24-19 26-30 29-25 14-18 22-15 9-14 28-24 6-10 15-6 2-9 11-7 14-18 7-3 9-14 24-20 13-17 25-22 18-25

4. 24-20 1-5 30-25 11-16 20-11 8-15 18-11 7-16 28-24 2-7 22-17 13-22 26-17 14-18 23-14 9-18 17-14 10-17 21-14 16-20 25-22 18-25 29-22 20-27 31-24

While 11-16 seems to draw like this:

1. 9-13 23-19 2. 10-15 19-10 3. 7-14 27-23 4. 5-9 22-18 5. 11-16 25-22 6. 2-7 24-19 7. 8-11 32-27 8. 16-20 22-17 9. 13-22 26-17-10 10. 6-15-24 28-19 11. 11-16 21-17 12. 7-10 17-13 13. 9-14 18-9 14. 4-8 29-25 15. 8-11 25-22 16. 11-15 27-24 17. 20-27 31-24 18. 16-20 23-18 19. 20-27 18-11 20. 10-14 19-15 21. 27-31 15-10 22. 14-17 22-18 23. 17-22 11-8 24. 31-27 9-6 25. 12-16 8-4 26. 27-24 6-2 27. 22-26 30-23 28. 24-19 2-7 29. 19-26 18-15 30. 1-6 10-1 31. 3-10-19

Anyway I don't think I will make it to vegas - I don't think Jan Mortimer is coming this time so she doesn't need anybody to drag with her to watch striptease this time :D
Last edited by MostFamousDane on Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby Mac Banks on Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:26 pm

Hello Sune,

Thanks for the clarification. I agree that 11-16 is the best move and sure draws against the attack you showed. Like I said in earlier posts, some of the top players a few years ago thought that the 7-14 jump draws and your play seem to verify their opinion. For my part though as I will stick to the 6-15 jump. Thanks for sharing your play.

Sune, on a different subject, I was so thrilled a few years ago to watch online a Danish checker tourney due to a program you had developed. In this modern age, I am amazed that the checker organization don't get together and ask to use your program for all championship matches!! To me this is a no brainer!! Your program would promote checkers throughout the world better than any other idea I think that is out there. Unfortunately, I am getting older ( 69) and may not see programs such as what you have developed used in championship matches. To me it was thrilling to look at each move of the contestants and express your opinions with others that were watching the match. Please let me know if you plan on using your program at some tourney in the future. Sune, sorry, that you won't be coming to Las Vegas but like Jan Mortimer being one of the nicest ladies I know ; you are one of the nicest gentleman I have come to know during my over 50 years in the game.

All the best,
Mac
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby MostFamousDane on Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:58 pm

Mac Banks wrote:Hello Sune,

Thanks for the clarification. I agree that 11-16 is the best move and sure draws against the attack you showed. Like I said in earlier posts, some of the top players a few years ago thought that the 7-14 jump draws and your play seem to verify their opinion. For my part though as I will stick to the 6-15 jump. Thanks for sharing your play.

Sune, on a different subject, I was so thrilled a few years ago to watch online a Danish checker tourney due to a program you had developed. In this modern age, I am amazed that the checker organization don't get together and ask to use your program for all championship matches!! To me this is a no brainer!! Your program would promote checkers throughout the world better than any other idea I think that is out there. Unfortunately, I am getting older ( 69) and may not see programs such as what you have developed used in championship matches. To me it was thrilling to look at each move of the contestants and express your opinions with others that were watching the match. Please let me know if you plan on using your program at some tourney in the future. Sune, sorry, that you won't be coming to Las Vegas but like Jan Mortimer being one of the nicest ladies I know ; you are one of the nicest gentleman I have come to know during my over 50 years in the game.

All the best,
Mac


Hi Mac - A few years ago I was toying around with the idea of making a bid for a world championship match and selling access to watch the match online in order to drive up the prize money. I didn't go much further with the idea since there really wasn't much interest in watching the two times I used it at the Danish Open
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:48 pm

Thanks, Mac and Sune ! It was a fine research on this opening with some very important and extremely valuable tips. Mainly, my post was related to Tommy book, which is one of the best today (along with Pask Compilation) about new openings. The level of accuracy and volume of information in Tommy book is fantastic. He also has a great intuition and analyzing skills. In fact - his dream about soundness 7-14 may become true :D - due to Sune fine 11-16, which may save the whole line.

I also agree with Mac, that 24-19 instead my 32-27 maybe an easy way to win. On my end, I still keep the status of this line as "Untested" unless more analyzing will be put on.

Sune, you've got a credit !

Mac, see you on Tuesday in Las Vegas.

Sincerely,

Alex
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby Ed Gilbert on Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:11 pm

For the past few years I have been building a 10-piece opening book on various difficult and questionable lines. This 7x14 capture in the Garter Snake looked like another good one to explore, so I put the opening book generator on it for a day or so. The results show that this is definitely a draw. I have put the updated book on the Kingsrow web page here: http://pages.prodigy.net/eyg/Checkers/BH_draws.htm. You can download this book file into your checkerboard\engines folder and follow the instructions on that page to see the new play. With about 500 new positions supporting this line in the book, it shows how to draw this against all white attacks.

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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby tommyc on Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:49 am

[quote][/quote]The results show that this is definitely a draw Ed Gilbert..............Well seems my instincts were ohk and going from memory i think (the WCC) 3227 the line i laid out in my Compilation on the new ballots,rather than 2218 was the greatest threat to the draw.But that was 8 yrs ago and i been trying to dig out the play,god knows where i left it prob on some floppy disc that doesnt open any ?? more. So the 7-14 jump in the Garter is still on the table until some one knocks it off that in itself is good news however tenuous.

Thanks Alex for your pleasing comments on Cannings Compilation i did try to "bare all" and strip away as much as i could to include everything i had on these openings and witholding very little.Of course one must always know where he is in relative terms as to his analysis but i can assure you when Mac Banks or Ed Gilbert speak abt a line of play you do take notice (even tho one may not always agree) such is the quality of these guys as they are top analysts.
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby Ed Gilbert on Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:19 pm

Tommy, you are right about Mac, but I am not a checkers analyst at all. I just write game programs as a kind of hobby. I have a great deal of respect for you guys that can analyze this stuff crossboard.

So the 7-14 jump in the Garter is still on the table until some one knocks it off that in itself is good news however tenuous
.

Tommy, I know you have been a little skeptical of computer analysis in the past, and I guess you are about this 7x14 also. Here is an interesting little thought exercise. I'm not proposing that we actually do this, although I would be willing to if it is something you would find interesting. I will make a list below of about 10 very difficult lines from some of the hardest 3 move ballots. The lines I will list are not the ones given in published play as the way to draw. Instead, I think they are usually given as thought to lose, or might lose, unknown, or weak (except recently where I have posted that I think these are draws). When you look at the list I think you'll see what I mean. My hypothetical match is this: I would play a mail match in which I (Kingsrow) only play the weak side of all these openings and my opponent only plays the strong side. The only catch is that if Kingsrow manages to tie the match as far as win/draw/loss results go, then it wins the match. Kingsrow's opponent has to win at least one of the games to win the match. So take a look at these "ballots". What do you think of your chances if you were playing the strong side in such a match?

What makes this a bit easier for the strong side is that Kingsrow's moves are known in advance. Its opening book is freely available, and open to inspection, so its opponent can know what Kingsrow will play in response to any attack, at least until it runs out of book moves.

[Event "Game 1, from Gemini 1"]
[Black "Kingsrow"]
1. 10-14 22-17 2. 11-16 17x10 3. 6x15 23-18 4. 15x22 25x18 5. 16-20

[Event "Game 2, Wilderness 16-20"]
[Black "Kingsrow"]
1. 9-13 22-18 2. 11-16 18-14 3. 10x17 21x14 4. 16-20

[Event "Game 3, Black Hole 25-22 ... 1-6"]
[Black "Kingsrow"]
1. 10-14 22-17 2. 9-13 17x10 3. 6x15 25-22 4. 15-19 24x15 5. 11x25 29x22 6. 1-6 {or 5-9, or 8-11, pick any one}

[Event "Game 4, Black Hole 24-19 xx 7-10"]
[Black "Kingsrow"]
1. 10-14 22-17 2. 9-13 17x10 3. 6x15 24-19 4. 15x24 28x19 5. 7-10

[Event "Game 5, Double Cross 5-9 24-20"]
[White "Kingsrow"]
1. 9-14 23-18 2. 14x23 27x18 3. 5-9 24-20

[Event "Game 6, Twilight Zone"]
[Black "Kingsrow"]
1. 9-13 24-20 2. 11-16 20x11 3. 8x15 23-18 4. 6-9 {or 7-11, take your pick}

[Event "Game 7, Tyne 17-14 6-10"]
[Black "Kingsrow"]
1. 10-15 21-17 2. 9-13 17-14 3. 6-10 {or 6-9, pick either one}

[Event "Game 8, 15-18 Old 14th"]
[Black "Kingsrow"]
1. 11-15 23-19 2. 8-11 22-17 3. 4-8 25-22 4. 9-13 27-23 5. 15-18

[Event "Game 9, 13-17 Will-o-Wisp"]
[Black "Kingsrow"]
1. 11-15 23-19 2. 9-13 22-18 3. 15x22 25x18 4. 13-17

[Event "Game 10"]
[Black "Kingsrow"]
1. 9-13 23-18 2. 6-9 26-23 3. 10-14
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby tommyc on Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:31 pm

Hi Ed,........Thanks for your kind offer which i regard as complimentary but i havent done any analyisis since Mac Banks "put me thru the mill" in our 2006 Mail WCM match. As matter of interest I may send you that (“ordinary GAYP opening”) and see what Kingrow makes of it .I suppose every person must know themselves well enough to find what excites and exhilerates them on a personal level and i always found that this sort of just doesnt do it for me and that its only "serious competition" that produces the endevour and thrust required to get on the required plain to succeed in a situation.

Mac Banks amongst others will be my judge (when i played him in the “friendly”) Payne Cup Mail match a few years ago and rather shabbily too ,friendlies are not my kinda thing.

Having said that i think Mac is the man you might address your interest to (and the best) if he would be enthused by it all, i dont know,he might!!.He would be the one with the superior knowledge, as he said himself hes got box-loads of it.

Recently I was trying to knock out the Wilderness2 ending, where Tinsley said 6-1 rather than 6-10 would win the ending for white but red does seem to have an answer to all white lines. I did however build up many lines on this which I may pull together in the future but for now its on the “back burner” as they say I think Jim Loy might have had alluded to this same line of play recently. ….Tommy Canning Ireland
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby tommyc on Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:51 pm

THE GARTER HAS FALLEN........again


9-13, 23-19, 10-15, 19-10, 7-14, 27-23, 5-9**, 22-18, 11-16**, 25-22,
2-7, 24-19, 8-11, 32-27, 16-20, 22-17, 13-22, 26-10, 7-14!!!!(aa), 29-25,
3-7*, 25-22, 7-10*, 22-17, 4-8, 28-24, 10-15, 17-10, 15-22, 23-18, 6-15,
19-10, 9-13, 10-7, 11-16**BIG STAR, 7-2,(VAR2) 1-5**, 2-7, 22-25, 31-26, 25-29, 26-22,
29-25, 7-3(var1), 8-11**.....21-17, 25-21, 17-14, 21-17, 14-10, 17-26, 30-23,
13-17, 10-6, 17-22, 6-1, 22-26, 18-15, 11-18, 23-14, 26-31, 3-8, 16-19,
24-15, 31-24, 8-11 drawn tc!!

(aa)sune played 6-24 here.

(var1)if....... 21-17, 25-21, 17-14, 21-17, 7-10, 17-26, 30-23, 13-17, 24-19,
8-11, 10-15, 17-22, 15-8, 22-26, 8-11, 26-31, 27-24, 20-27, 11-20,
27-32, 19-15, 31-26, 23-19, 32-27, 15-11, 26-22, 18-15, 22-18, 14-10,
5-9, 10-6, 9-13, 6-1, 13-17......and the 7-14 Garter Snake draws!!tc/


(VAR2)..... 7-3, 22-25, 31-26, 25-29, 3-7, 8-11, 26-22,
11-15, 18-11, 29-25, 22-17, 13-22, 7-10, 22-26, 30-23, 25-30, 23-18,
30-26, 18-14, 26-22, 11-7, 22-18, 7-3, 18-9, 21-17, 9-13, 17-14, 1-5,
10-6, 13-17, 14-10, 17-22, 3-8, 22-26, 8-11, 26-31, 10-7, 16-19, 24-15,
31-24 The Garter falls again....................

Sune had previously pointed out 11-16 to be the true and maybe only draw line.!!
9-13 23-19 10-15 19-10 7-14?! 27-23 5-9 22-18 11-16!!!!, 25-22 2-7 24-19 8-11 32-27 16-20 22-17 13-22 26-17-10 6-15-24 28-19 11-16 21-17 7-10 17-13 9-14 18-9 4-8 29-25 8-11 25-22 11-15 27-24 20-27 31-24 16-20 23-18 20-27 18-11 10-14 19-15 27-31 15-10 14-17 22-18 17-22 11-8 31-27 9-6 12-16 8-4 27-24 6-2 22-26 30-23 24-19 2-7 19-26 18-15 1-6 10-1 3-10-19
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Re: The Gartner Snake 7-14 ?

Postby MostFamousDane on Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:24 am

Hi Tommy

Thx for the interesting play - variant 2 also draws you play 8-11 too early

... 7-14 29-25 3-7 25-22 7-10 22-17 4-8 28-24 10-15 17-10 15-22 23-18 6-15 19-10 9-13 10-7 11-16 (Var 2)

7-3 22-25 31-26 25-29 3-7 29-25 (instead of 8-11) 7-2 8-11 2-7 25-29 26-23 29-25 18-15 11-18 23-14 25-22 14-9 22-25 drawn
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