Switchers

Discussion and analysis about a full game.

Switchers

Postby Michael Holmes on Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:19 pm

Alex, your comments are welcomed. I am sure you can give us some great insight on these two beauties.

[Event "2008 IL ty 9-13 21-17 5-9"]
[Date ""]
[Black "Michael Holmes"]
[White "Alex Moiseyev"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
1. 9-13 21-17 2. 6-9 25-21 3. 9-14 22-18 4. 13x22 18x9 5. 5x14 26x17 6. 11-15 29-25 7. 8-11
25-22 8. 4-8 30-25 9. 2-6 23-19 10. 15-18 22x15 11. 11x18 31-26 12. 10-15 19x10 13. 6x15
17x10 14. 7x14 26-22
{The game was stopped here and restart after the second game ended. It was on a minute per move when it was restarted.}
15. 8-11
{red has too many draws here for this to be considered a good attack by white.}
27-23 16. 18x27 32x23 17. 3-7 {or 3-8 or 1-6} 22-17 18. 7-10 25-22 19. 11-16 24-19 20.
15x24 28x19 21. 16-20 17-13 22. 20-24 22-18 23. 24-27 18x9 24. 10-14 1/2-1/2
Moiseyev mentioned that he missed a win but no win was missed.


[Event "2008 IL ty 9-13 21-17 5-9"]
[Date ""]
[Black "Alex Moiseyev"]
[White "Michael Holmes"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
1. 9-13 21-17 2. 6-9 25-21 3. 11-15 30-25 4. 9-14 24-19 5. 15x24 28x19 6. 5-9 32-28 7. 2-6
{An old line that I like to play as well. Alex was aware that I knew this line so why he played it on me I dont know.}
22-18 {Or Alex's 19-15.} 8. 13x22 26x17 9. 8-11 17-13
{Standard pp here is 25-22. I had produced some play on this 17-13 years ago with Collosus but it may be pp somewhere too.}
10. 12-16 19x12 11. 11-16 27-24
{If the standard 25-22 had been played instead of 17-13 I could play the better 12-8 pitch here but now I can not.}
12. 16-19 23x16 13. 14x23 24-20
{Somewhere around this point the game was put on a minute per move.} 14. 4-8 21-17
15. 8-11 25-21 16. 9-14 29-25 17. 1-5 28-24 18. 23-27 24-19 19. 27-32 19-15 20. 11x18
31-26 21. 18-23 26x19 22. 14-18 17-14 23. 10x17 21x14 24. 32-27 1/2-1/2
Another sound draw. :D :D
Last edited by Michael Holmes on Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: IL 2008 Switcher

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:07 pm

Michael Holmes wrote:Switcher
Lets be accurate with terminology, because if Masters don't do this - we lose our history and heritage and leave young generation with nothing in the past. This opening doesn't have a name Switcher. If I am wrong, please, correct me. Only GAYP opening 11-15 21-17 9-13 can be named as Switcher.

Alex, your comments are welcomed.
Thanks, Michael !

I am sure you can give us some great insight
Yea-a-a :lol: Only insights, because in this opening with extremely limited scope there is nothing much I can add to play.

Here are my "insight comments" to first game.

3. 9-14 22-18
Choice is very narrow. I decided to take this line (22-18) because it's generate a little bit chance for original play, and although chance that Michael maynot be aware of all details.

BTW. In WCM 2003 it was a funny and interesting transposition into this position from another opening. Having white pieces Ron King played: 9-14 22-17 6-9 25-22 ?! (not the strongest reply) 9-13 = the same

8. 4-8 30-25
In WCM 2003, G2 Ron King tried here 31-26 instead 30-25 but got nothing. This game was well covered in Sixth, MK-2, Pg. 16-17

9. 2-6 23-19
I had a hard choice here. Another good option white has here - 24-19 15-24 28-19. Actually 24-19 move is better known to published play and after 23-19 I was on my own. After 24-19 15-24 28-19 red should play 6-9 17-13 11-15 13-6 15-24 27-20 14-18 etc with Draw. It will be also important thing to say, that Ron King won this line with white against Don Lafferty in WCM 1997. Why I didn't take it ? I trully donno :lol: but I spent a reasonable time at this moment.

10. 15-18 22x15 11. 11x18
After this trade I spent alot of time, trying to find some real chance and although keeping a safe draw in hands. Only second problem was resolved.

14. 7x14 26-22
Now it's a time for white to play carefully. I remember that I saw many dangers here with other moves.

The game was stopped here and restart after the second game ended.
I perfectly understood that really nothing much left in position, but wanted to keep some psychological uncertainces ! :lol:

Moiseyev mentioned that he missed a win but no win was missed.
No, I didn't mention this. I mentioned that I missed a win in the second game after 17-13 but it seems like I was wrong with this. In first game I didn't miss anything.

I will add something for second game later.

Regards,

AQlex
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Re: IL 2008 Switcher

Postby Michael Holmes on Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:04 pm

I have always referred to this opening as a switcher line but in checking pp it seems that you are correct Alex. Clayton usually makes light of it too because I know several lines of pp but seldom do I know thier names. Anyway, although I placed 4th in this tournament I had some very good games and more importantly I am getting back into the swing of things after a 8 or 9 month break.
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Re: IL 2008 Switcher

Postby Jay H on Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:31 pm

Michael Holmes wrote:I have always referred to this opening as a switcher line but in checking pp it seems that you are correct Alex. Clayton usually makes light of it too because I know several lines of pp but seldom do I know thier names. Anyway, although I placed 4th in this tournament I had some very good games and more importantly I am getting back into the swing of things after a 8 or 9 month break.


Humbly offering this to you gentlemen, for whom I have the utmost respect Image
...
Call's Vocabulary refers to 9-13, 21-17 as the "Edinburgh-Switcher".......

I always thought 21-17 was the definitive move in the "switcher"...
Image

Regardless....thanx for the games !!!!

Jay H
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Re: IL 2008 A line that was almost a Switcher

Postby Michael Holmes on Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:54 am

What book did you get this out of Jay.
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Re: IL 2008 A line that was almost a Switcher

Postby Jay H on Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:15 pm

Michael Holmes wrote:What book did you get this out of Jay.


Greetings Michael,
The book is "VOCABULARY OF CHECKERS" A dictionary of words, terms and phrases used in the game called checkers, or English draughts
By Willim T Call 1909
The exact verbiage recorded here...
Edinburgh-Switcher; The opening formed by the characteristic moves of the Edinburgh opening and the Switcher opening, thus:9-13,21-17.

Regards

Jay H
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Re: IL 2008 A line that was almost a Switcher

Postby Ingo_Zachos on Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:40 pm

Looking at my books of the early (2-move era) American Ty's I think that they used the following system:

1. 9-13 was called Edingburgh
1. 9-14 was called Double
1. 10-14 was called Denny
1. 10-15 was called Kelso
1.11-15 was called Regular
1. 11-16 was called Bristol
1. 12-16 was called Dundee

Also they appended to that "first name" a "second name", determined by white's 1st move

1. --- 21-17 was calles "Switcher"
1. --- 22-17 was called "Choice"
1. --- 22-18 was called "Single"
1. --- 23-18 was called "Cross"
1. --- 23-18 was called "Book"
1. --- 24-19 was called "Second"
1. --- 24-20 was called "Lassie"

That made a total of 7x7 = 49 different named altogether, and, thus all two-move ballots had their logical name.

1. 11-15 23-19 was "Regular Book"
1. 11-15 21-17 was "Regular Switcher"
1. 9-13 21-17 was "Edinburgh Switcher"

It seems like that system was not used anymore in the 3 move era, but the naming "Edinburgh Switcher" most likely refers to the first two move!
1.9-13 = Edinburgh
1. --- 21-17 = Switcher

So to call it Edinburgh Switcher would be correct if you want to describe the 2 move ballot, "Switcher" originally, in GAYP only days, was 1.11-15 21-17, 2.9-13, sometimes also by transposition 1.9-13 21-17, 2. 11-15

So, in fact Michael was not wrong , and Alex was not wrong.
It is not the "regular" Switcher, but the "Edinburgh" Switcher.

I hope that this answer from an amateur solves the classification problem.

Greetinx from sunny Dortmund, Germany

Ingo Zachos
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Re: IL 2008 A line that was almost a Switcher

Postby liam stephens on Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:56 pm

Ingo, I think we will have to appoint you the "Schoolmaster". :)

And still they gaz'd and still the wonder grew,
That one small head could carry all he knew.
The Village Schoolmaster -- Oliver Goldsmith.
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Re: IL 2008 A line that was almost a Switcher

Postby Jay H on Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:26 pm

liam stephens wrote:Ingo, I think we will have to appoint you the "Schoolmaster". :)

And still they gaz'd and still the wonder grew,
That one small head could carry all he knew.
The Village Schoolmaster -- Oliver Goldsmith.


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Re: IL 2008 A line that was almost a Switcher

Postby Ingo_Zachos on Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:44 pm

How much is my salary and do I have the right to a pension ?
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Re: IL 2008 A line that was almost a Switcher

Postby Patrick Parker on Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:25 am

basic checkers says 6-9 switcher?

pronk has corrected me as well

but if they transpose ....they get the name in my opinion
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Re: IL 2008 A line that was almost a Switcher

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:42 am

Ingo_Zachos wrote:Looking at my books of the early (2-move era)

This fine research has only historical value and cannot be use for references, because it was never adopted and accepted by checkers fraturnity ... unless you demonstrate me most recent eveidents and sources.

Regards,

Alex
Last edited by Alex_Moiseyev on Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: IL 2008 A line that was almost a Switcher

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:43 am

...
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Re: IL 2008 A line that was almost a Switcher

Postby Ingo_Zachos on Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:19 am

Alex_Moiseyev wrote:
... unless you demonstrate me most recent eveidents and sources.

...



Is Basic Checkers recent enough ? There this line is called a "6-9 switcher", and other system r named according to that 2-move era classification.

In fact, to me it looks like a reasonable system, and we could still use it to name the ballots, though
1.9-13 22-18, 2. 10-14 sounds bad as "10-14 Edinburgh Book", and Inferno sounds much better and describes it much better.

Do you have an alternative name for 1.9-13 21-17, 2.6-9 to "6-9 (Edinburgh) Switcher" ?
I think in this case it also gives a description of the line, as the "Switcher structure " is the key to this line, so the name has something.

So why not use it?
We could also use a numerical system, but here sources also differ, as BC has no numbers for the Golden Dozen, and Brian Hinkle's numbers, that I would prefer as a better system, also includes all barred openings.

In chess, we even have different names for the same opening in different languages.
For instance the Ruy Lopez is called Spanisch in German, or the Sweschnikow in Russian is called Pelikan in Portugese and Lasker in older German sources, or the Trompowsky is called Treybal system in Czech.
Also there r different codes, like the ECO code and the NIC system. I even have books that r about "translating" those codes and national names of the chess openings.

Seems like we live in Babylon in a way ;-)

Greetinx from cloudy Dortmund, Germany

Ingo Zachos
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Re: IL 2008 A line that was almost a Switcher

Postby liam stephens on Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:53 am

Of course one must distinguish between a single opening move, such as 9-13, and an opening formation such as the Glasgow or Souter etc, which takes several moves to set up.
This distinction is usefully discussed by Oldbury in his Ency Vol 1, page 92,
when he refers to:

“…….the oft stated principle that no player would consider that a game had been opened (…..)
when only one move has been made”

and:

“I don’t care what name is given to the peg I hang my hat on; do you? ”
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