Whilter Loss

Discussion and analysis about openings.

Whilter Loss

Postby Lisle Cormier on Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:20 am

Over the weekend, I worked out a loss in the Whilter with a neatly wrapped endgame. Below is what I believe to be White's line of maximum resistence.

11-15, 23-19, 9-14, 22-17, 7-11, 26-22? (A), 11-16*, 17-13, 16-23, 27-9, 5-14, 32-27, 3-7? (B), 30-26, 7-11, 24-20? (C), 12-16*, 22-17, 16-19*, 27-23, 19-24*, 28-19, 15-24, 26-22, 24-28*, 22-18, 6-9*, 13-6, 2-9, 17-13, 1-6*, 23-19, 14-23, 19-16, 11-15*, 16-11, 28-32*, 11-7, 32-28*, 7-3, 8-11*, 25-22, 9-14*, 22-17, 28-24*, 20-16, 11-20, 3-7, 24-19*, 7-2, 15-18*, 2-9, 20-24*, 29-25, 23-27*, 9-5, 27-32, 5-9, 32-27*, 9-5, 4-8, 5-9, 8-11*, 9-6, 19-15*, 6-2, 27-23*, 13-9, 15-19*, 2-6, 11-16, 6-22, 19-15*. Black Wins.

A. Loses.

B. Allows a draw. Instead, I propose 12-16* to win as shown in my post below.

C. Albert Tucker's 24-19 improvement appears to draw.
Last edited by Lisle Cormier on Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Whilter Loss

Postby Ingo_Zachos on Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:14 pm

Well, to me the other take seems more critical:
1. 11-15 23-19, 2. 9-14 22-17, 3. 7-11 26-22, 4.11-16 17-13, 5. 16x23 and now not 5.- ... 27x9, which is easily bad, but the more complicated 5. ... 27x11.
After 6.8x15 I would play 6.´... 30-26.
With ideas such as 7. 12-16 13-9!, 8.6x13 22-17, 9.13x22, 25x11, and though the man on 15 looks vulnerable, I want to know how to take advantage of it, for instance:
10. 3-8 ? 24-20 and white is much better,
or 10.16-20 24-19, 11.3-8 11-7!, 12. 2x11 19-16! and the white king will easily compensate the piece.
Maybe 10.14-18, but that does not look like a clear win to me with at least good practical chances for white.

Maybe you can give the line you worked out against that ?

Greetinx from old Europe,

Ingo Zachos
Last edited by Ingo_Zachos on Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Whilter Loss

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:07 pm

I am giving here a diagram for easy visualization:


Image

Lisle, I agree with losing status of line after 27x9.

Ingo, after 27x11, 8x15, 30-26 red should win after 14-18

To both: the draw maybe hidden somewhere after 27x11 8x15 32-27 etc.In this case 14-18 will be an easy draw after 24-19, and if red plays 12-16 then we can return back with different order of moves to Ingo lines: 13-9 6x13 22-17 etc.

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Re: Whilter Loss ->history

Postby Ingo_Zachos on Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:24 am

The move 26-22 has actually been played before in a US national.
It was in a game played 1924, 3rd round, page 178 of the Tournamnet book by John J. Finley, comments given here by F.R: Wendemuth(my comments in brackets):

Lewis-Herskowitz, US nationals 1924, 3.rd (game3)
1. 9-14 23-19, 2.11-15, 22-17, 3.7-11(= Transposition) 26-22 (A), 4.11-16 27-23(a sideline we did not consider, but seems to be an outright loss), 5.16-20 31-27 (White already looks cramped), 6.8-11 17-13, 7.4-8 22-18, 8.15x22 25x9, 9.5x14 30-26, 10.11-15(B) 29-25, 11.8-11 19-16, 12.12x19 23x7, 13.2x11 26-23, 14.3-8 23-19, 15.8-12 25-22, 16.14-18 22-17, 17.18-23 27x18, 18.20x27 32x23, 19.15x24 28x19, 20.10-15

notes:

A) Something new, but it does not look strong.
B) Lewis misses the win here as follows: 10.11-16 26-22(C), 11.8-11 22-18, 12.1-5 18x9, 13.5x14 29-25, 14.3-7, Black wins.
C) 10. ... 19-15, 11.10x19 24x15, 12.6-9 13x6, 13.1x19 29-25, 14.14-18 23x14, 15.19-24 28x19, 16.16x30, Black wins.

Greetinx from Dortmund, Germany

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Re: Whilter Loss -> 27-11 Take

Postby Lisle Cormier on Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:22 am

Here is the continuation after the 27-11 take. I do not see a way for White to draw.

27-11, 8-15, 32-27 (a), 12-16*, 13-9, 6-13, 22-17, 13-22, 25-11, 10-15, 30-26 (b), 1-6*, 27-23 (c), 15-18*, 21-17, 14-21, 23-14, 16-20*, 24-19, 3-7*. Black Wins.

(a) 30-26, 14-18*, 24-20, 4-8, 28-24, 5-9, 22-17, 1-5*, 17-14, 10-17, 21-14, 3-7*, 25-21, 8-11, 32-28, 18-22. Black Wins.

(b) 27-23, 15-18, 24-20, 18-27, 31-24, 14-18, 30-26, 5-9*, 29-25, 9-13, 26-22, 18-23*, 24-19, 23-26, 19-12, 26-31*, 28-24, 31-27*, 21-17, 27-23, 25-21, 23-26*, 24-19, 26-23. Black Wins.

(c) 26-23, 16-20*, 29-25, 6-10. Black Wins.
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Re: Whilter Loss

Postby albert tucker on Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:44 pm

re-whilter loss? Is it really a dead loss,or just on life-support.11-15,23-19,9-14,22-17,7-11,26-22,[A].11-16,17-13,16-23,
27-9,5-14,32-27,3-7,30-26,7-11,24-19[B],15-24,28-19,11-15,26-23,15-24,27-20,8-11,31-27,12-16,22-17,10-15,17-10,15-19,10-7,19-26,27-23,30-26,7-3,2-7,3-10,6-15,23-18,15-22,25-18,16-19,18-14.draw [C]

[A] said to lose,but does it?
[B]Mr. Cormier played 24-20 here and showed a loss.We going to utilize our trading power with 24-19 here and hope.
[C] I,m sure someone may find a win after the 26-22 at [A] but it would be interesting.Good Hunting,Albert Tucker
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Re: Whilter Loss -> 27-9 Correction

Postby Lisle Cormier on Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:08 pm

Nice find, Albert! Since the 24-19 exchange knocks out my previously posted 27-9 line, an earlier 12-16 may patch the hole.

11-15, 23-19, 9-14, 22-17, 7-11, 26-22?, 11-16, 17-13, 16-23, 27-9, 5-14, 32-27, 12-16* (A), 13-9, 6-13, 22-17, 13-22, 25-9, 8-11*, 21-17, 4-8*, 17-13, 10-14*, 29-25, 15-18, 9-5, 11-15, 24-20, 8-11, 31-26, 16-19, 26-23, 19-26, 30-23, 3-8, 25-21, 8-12, 28-24, 12-16*. Black Wins.

A. Instead of 3-7? in the initial post.
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Re: Whilter Loss -> 27-23 Defense

Postby Lisle Cormier on Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:50 pm

Since Ingo posted a tournament game in which 27-23 was used, here is a follow-up.

11-15, 23-19, 9-14, 22-17, 7-11, 26-22?, 11-16*, 27-23 (A), 8-11, 17-13, 16-20*, 22-18, 15-22, 25-9, 5-14, 29-25, 20-27, 31-24, 4-8, 25-22, 11-15, 24-20, 15-24, 28-19, 8-11, 32-28, 11-15, 30-25, 15-24, 28-19, 3-7. Black Wins.

A. In lieu of 17-13 as shown above.
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Re: Whilter Loss

Postby Patrick Parker on Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:21 am

are you back in the game now ?
if so good to hear
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Re: Whilter Loss

Postby Lisle Cormier on Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:04 pm

Patrick Parker wrote:are you back in the game now ?
if so good to hear


Thanks, Patrick. I am getting closer. :)
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