Anybody has play on this 32-27?

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Anybody has play on this 32-27?

Postby Dennis Pawlek on Fri Nov 25, 2005 9:17 am

This was played in the WCDF Event. I wonder whats up with the 32-27 move I think that might be an loser. My programs tell me that they are not certain about this but the usual reply is of course 31-27. Anybody seen that move before or did play a game with it?

Black: Dennis Pawlek White: Thommy Canning
11-15, 23-18, 8-11, 27-23, 11-16, 18x11, 16-20, 24-19, 7x16, 22-18, 4-8, 25-22, 8-11, 29-25, 10-14, 32-27, 3-8, 19-15, 16-19, 23x7, 14x32, 7-3, 32-27, 31x24, 20x27, 26-23, 6-10, 15x6, 1x10, 23-19, 27-31, 19-16, 12x19, 3x12, 19-23, 12-16, 23-27, 22-18, 27-32, 25-22, 10-14, 16-19, 14x23, 19x26, 32-27, 30-25, 9-14, 26-23, 27x18, 22x15, 31-26, Black wins.
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Re: Anybody has play on this 32-27?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:22 am

Hello, Dennis !

I don't know an exact answer on your question regards status of 32-27 move. My program also was "fluctuating" and "shaking" :idea: If you are interesting my personal (not program) opinion - I think white can survive here. My opinion is based on long experience with using programs: if programs can't win immediately - it is more likely (99%) that it is a draw.

===============================================================

Anyway - the reason of my post different. I want to bring to your and other forum readers attention to another beautiful possibility which gives white an even game going into crazy cross aboard position. See diagram #1. I propose to play here 21-17! giving a pitch ! This is standard routine pitch often arise in such kind of positions. After 14-21 19-15 3-8 22-17 we have position on diagram #2. My quick "express" research with program shows that position is even and red has two ways to play here:

1) 9-13 17-14 5-9* 14-5 2-7 etc
2) 6-10 15-6 1-10 25-22 etc

I am leaving it here and propose you to study this position on your own, and generate more play.

#1. White to move.
Image
21-17 !

#2. Red to move
Image
9-13 or 6-10

So ... what do you think about this pitch, do you like it ? :lol:
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Re: Anybody has play on this 32-27?

Postby Dennis Pawlek on Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:45 pm

Well I think there might be more with the position. Coz if I do the moves that Tommy came up with the score goes down a lot. The funny thing is that the programs do recommand the next moves of Tommy. I seen the same play before. Nick McBride did play it at a later point in one of our practice games.

This is a nice idea but how about if I play 2-6 instead of the moves you give at the 2 nd position? :D
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Re: Anybody has play on this 32-27?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:35 pm

Dennis Pawlek wrote:how about if I play 2-6 instead of the moves you give at the 2 nd position? :D


I assume - you wanted to say 2-7 ? Good move, I mised that one !

After 17-13 both. white and red are OK going to crazy complications with very fine play. Red can reply 7-10 (goes to two mans down) or 16-19 and both ways are sound and very interesting. You and other readers can study this position on your own.

Or you can fully and completely analyse everything happened after 21-17 - this will be very insteresting and serious research, worthy to publish in any checkers media. :idea:

About 32-27 soundness ... we should probably ask Mr. Gilbert / KR help by using 10 pieces database for correct verdict.
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Game alalysis

Postby Ed Gilbert on Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:31 pm

Hi Dennis,

I looked at this with kingsrow and do not think that 32-27 is a losing move. I could not quite get a database draw score but it was close. Kingsrow agrees with the game moves up until move 13. 26-23 and shows a small positional advantage for black. After move 14. 6-10 it sees a database draw almost instantly. The losing move appears to be 19-16 at move 16. (22-18 draws).

-- Ed

1. 11-15 23-18 2. 8-11 27-23 3. 11-16 18x11 4. 16-20 24-19 5. 7x16 22-18 6. 4-8 25-22 7. 8-11 29-25 8. 10-14 32-27 9. 3-8 19-15 10. 16-19 23x7 11. 14x32 7-3 12. 32-27 31x24 13. 20x27 26-23 14. 6-10 15x6 15. 1x10 23-19 16. 27-31 19-16

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Re: Anybody has play on this 32-27?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:37 pm

Many thanks, Ed ! Amazing ! I can't beleive my eyes. See diagram below. 19-16 loses and 22-18 draw. What a move ! Fantastic :lol:

White to move and draw
Image
22-18*
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Re: I can't believe my eyes

Postby Ed Gilbert on Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:37 pm

Hi Alex,

Here is the continuation after 22-18.

22-18 17. 31-27 18-15 18. 27-24 15x6 19. 24x15 6-1 20. 9-13 28-24 21. 8-11 24-20 22. 15-18 3-8 23. 11-15 8-11 draw

Did you have a different attack in mind for Black?

-- Ed
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Re: I can't believe my eyes

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:28 am

Ed Gilbert wrote:Did you have a different attack in mind for Black?


Hi, Ed ! There might be couple interesting questions here:

1. How white survive after 22-18 31-27 18-15 2-6 ?

2. How red wins (maybe trunk line) after 19-16 ?

Alex
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Re: I can't believe my eyes

Postby schoolboyy on Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:59 am

Ed Gilbert wrote:Hi Alex,

Here is the continuation after 22-18.

22-18 17. 31-27 18-15 18. 27-24 15x6 19. 24x15 6-1 20. 9-13 28-24 21. 8-11 24-20 22. 15-18 3-8 23. 11-15 8-11 draw

Did you have a different attack in mind for Black?

-- Ed
What about 2-6 21-17 27-24 25-21 24-20 30-26 20-16 26-22 16-23 3-7 10-19 22-18 23-14 17-1 9-13 1-6 5-9 6-1 Draw Image
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Re: I can't believe my eyes

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:29 am

schoolboyy wrote:2-6 21-17 27-24 25-21 24-20 30-26 20-16 26-22 16-23 3-7 10-19 22-18 23-14 17-1 9-13 1-6 5-9 6-1 Draw


Very nice, trully enjoyed :lol:
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Diagrams

Postby Guest on Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:11 am

How do you get the diagrams on a message?
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Re: Anybody has play on this 32-27?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:48 am

Guest wrote:How do you get the diagrams on a message?


Just follow simple instructions in this topic below.

http://www.usacheckers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4
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Re: 2. How red wins (maybe trunk line) after 19-16 ?

Postby Ed Gilbert on Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:07 pm

Hi Alex,

Because kingsrow saw 10-piece losses everywhere for white, I thought its defense might look unnatural, so I set cake up to play white against kingsrow. I let the game run at 2min/move until cake saw that it would be down a man.

19-16 17. 12x19 3x12 18. 19-23 28-24 19. 23-27 12-16 20. 27-32 16-19 21. 32-27 24-20 22. 10-14 19-23 23. 27x18 22x15 24. 31-27 15-11 25. 27-23 20-16 1-0

-- Ed
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Re: 2. How red wins (maybe trunk line) after 19-16 ?

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:20 pm

Ed Gilbert wrote:22. 10-14

Another masterpiece ! See diagram.

Red to move and win.
Image
10-14 !

If someone later wants to analyse this, or piblish an article about this line, he/she has definetely include all these beauties. It will be very interesting and instructive. Dennis - I would recommend you :idea: to write an article for EDJ about all this play and give appropriate credits to KR and schoolboy, who showed a fine draw after 2-6 (see previous posts)

You also can include 21-17 pitch (instead 32-27) - this will attract the whole article and make it more nicely.
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Re: Anybody has play on this 32-27?

Postby Dennis Pawlek on Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:51 am

Many thanks for all the kind help. The latest EDA Journal has this game in it. I did ask for help of the experienced players as the programs are not showing it proper. My hope is that one of the experienced masters or grandmaster among the EDA Journal readers will be hooked and send me analysis. If not I will ask Nigel Proffitt or MacBanks if they are willing to write something as they are undoubtful among the finest analysts these days.
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