Games in Beijing

Discussion and analysis about a full game.

Re: Games in Beijing

Postby william on Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:29 pm

Hi Liam

Many thanks for that piece of interesting information , I had not considered it . Now I can really shoot myself LOL!!

Are there many tys which operate that system ??

Concerning Game posted against Martynov , this was not analysis , I can't analyse games LOL ,, it was just some stuff

seen over the board during the game...

Greetings from wintery Paris

William Docherty
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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby liam stephens on Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:33 am

Only in the Masters section of 3 Move tys in the USA, as far as I am aware.
When the Swiss System was originally introduced in the UK, back in the 1960s I think, It was the system adopted.
It was only later that it changed to points per game. We all like some credit for drawing the strong side of the Skullcracker or Octopus (if we can ) against the likes of Alex or Ron !!!
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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:56 am

I always stated that 3-moves style doesn't have such object as "game", only "ballot". 3-moves itself is already lottery when we can pick critical/even opening, or high/low scope etc. But counting each game almost double the lottery factor.

People who adopted this strange system - count each game - think they are very clever and smart, but in reality this system makes a great damage to checkers and hurt players ... not me or Ron, we are very much at our high's. It hurts other players prohibiting them to make a progress.

I see two possible options who is in charge and responsible for this mess: WCDF or Micky Mouse :D One of them should reconsider some things. On Barbados QT in 2004 we used "counting ballot" system and it worked very well.

William, one tournament is over , other is on the way !

Currently we are in the beginning of form team for annotation ALL games in Beijing and create a book in behalf of WCDF. I already have OK from Shane McCoskey and Richard Beckwith. I plan to invite Michael Holmes, Jim Loy and Tommy Canning if they have interest, time and intention. Ingo Zachos also is on team, indeed :D

Would you be interesting to participate in this project ?

Liam, how about you ?

Regards,

Alex
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby Ingo_Zachos on Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:44 am

Dear Alex,

I would gladly join that team, though I have to say that I am very sceptical against three move games and their merit.
8 out of the 9 openings I got in Beijing were highly uneven and I wanted to resign 7 out of 9 right from the first three moves with both sides, as ALL three moves were different from the moves I would have made.

I think that 3-move is the problem, not the counting of the points.

Plus, in 2012 we should have a slighly different format.
Quick games and maybe a team event with 2 players (12 countries with at least 2 two players were there!) per team and a seperate event for women is what I think of, and maybe during both weeks, first team competions and then the single competitions or something like that.
But I am beginning to dream ;-)

To William: Igor Martynov is German. He used to play Shashki on a high level some 20-30 years ago (Latvian Champion) and quit playing and moved to Germany. In 2008 he made his comeback and I am glad that he now represents Germany.
He also runs a nice website where you can see his travels he did with his wife Nadja:

http://home.arcor.de/martynov/index.html

Watch out for his Beijing report!

Greetinx from Dortmund,

Ingo Zachos
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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:08 am

Ingo_Zachos wrote:Dear Alex, I would gladly join that team
Thanks !!!

Ingo_Zachos wrote:, though I have to say that I am very sceptical against three move games and their merit. 8 out of the 9 openings I got in Beijing were highly uneven and I wanted to resign 7 out of 9 right from the first three moves with both sides, as ALL three moves were different from the moves I would have made.

I think that 3-move is the problem, not the counting of the points.
Ingo, checkers is not a specific position, initial or after 3 moves, it's just a set of rules. It can be apply to any position from 24 pieces ending database :D It has it's own positional and tactical strategy. 3-moves, 11 man ballot and other styles which allow more variety, is a best way to prove - who plays CHECKERS better.

You may agree or disagree with me, but GAYP - is very limited small part of of 3 moves highly depends on PP knoweledges. Nothing much was added to GAYP PP in the last 100 years. An argument that "you can make any move" doesn't work very well, because as you said, in 3-moves ballots which you played, there were moves which you would never make on your own !

Ingo_Zachos wrote:in 2012 we should have a slighly different format.
I really hope it will be improved. Especially regulations about "end of game/round" and time control.

Ingo_Zachos wrote:Quick games and maybe a team event with 2 players (12 countries with at least 2 two players were there!) per team and a seperate event for women is what I think of, and maybe during both weeks, first team competions and then the single competitions or something like that.
But I am beginning to dream ;-)
I can also extend your dream :D and say that we can create youth event and maybe some GAYP or mixed style events with separate sets of medals.
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby william on Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:54 pm

Hi There

Well guys you can count me in on the contribution for first world mindsports ty, book ; In fact the pleasure 's all mine !!!

Greetings to all

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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby william on Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:34 pm

Hi folks

Here is the companion game , game 1. , to Docherty - Martynov Beijing games.

But firstly , compare these two positions :

# 1. A P.P loss from ;

10-14 ; 24-19 ; 11-16 Black to play


Image


# 2. Docherty - Martynov game 1.

10-14 ; 23-19 ; 11-16 Black to play

Image


Concerning both positions , and more so during my game , I was only expecting no more than a Bristol cross draw , 18-15 line , with only moderate care to be taken in move sequence to ensure the drw.
But when Igor played 22-18 ,my hopes of getting something more rose , and I started to play the ''parallel game''

From # 2. I continued ; 5-9 ; 25-22 ; 2-7 ; 31-27 ; 8-11 ; x ; x ; 19-16 ; 12x19 ; 23x16 ; 14x23 ; 27x18 Forms # 3.

# 3. black to play

Image

During game I was considering two options , 20-24 ( mmm ) or 10-14 ; which kept the position tight and if win was there then had to be very precise calculations.

I chose 10-14 and calculated 3 or 4 decisive variations leading to ;

Firstly The variation played in game ;

Image

Resulting from # 3. by 10-14 ; 29-25 ; 14x23 ; 26x19 ; 9-14 ; 30-26 ; 6-10 ; 32-27 ; 1-5!! ; 28-24 ; 3-8!!! ; 26-23 ; 8-12 ; 22-18 ; 13-17 ; x ; x ; Black Won !


The second calculation led to this from # 3.

Black win


Image

Arising from # 3. via ; 10-14 ; 26-23 ; 6-10 ;( if 32-27 ; 1-5 ; 29-25 ; 14-17 ; 21x14 ; 10x26 ; 18-15 ; 11x18 ; 23x14 ; 9x18 ; 30x14 ; 7-11 B.win) 29-25 ; ( or if 32-27 again ; 1-5 ; 16-12 ; then 11-16 B.wins) 1-5 ; 30-26 ; 10-15 ; 28-24 ; ( And if 32-27 ; 7-10 ; 16x7 ; 15-19 I felt confortable enough with Blacks to create some problems)20x27 ; 32-28 ; 11x20 ; 18x2 ; 27-31 Black win
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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby Ingo_Zachos on Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:05 am

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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby william on Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:47 pm

Hi Ingo

Sorry I don't understand the language on the page that you sent on last post , what are we to do with this... HELP please!!

Greetings

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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby william on Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:30 pm

Hi Folks

Here is probably my messiest mid-game of ty.

But firstly , I have a question .

What does Irish Internationalist and International Grandmaster Hugh Devlin , and myself have in common , apart from good looks , athletic bodies , 2 kids each , and moaning wives LOL ( well Hugh , on last part I speak for myself !)??

The answer is we both played the same loss , believing it to actually be a win for us , and this against McCosker for Hugh ,
and Garret Owens for me , both Irish grandmasters !! Mmmmm , was this a prepared illusion lol ... let's see how things went , or
didn't...


White to play

Image

At this point Hugh believed reds last move to be a PP loss !! Me too !! So we both played 19-15 ??

Hughs game occured two or three rounds before my game , and I remember Shane talking about it to me , and we ran the game up in our heads. I should have been warier ...

Black replies of course 3-8 ; now 24-19 cannot be played ( incidently I don't have the McCosker - devlin continuation) so I go
32-28 ; 11-16 ; and white is forced to play 21-17 ; 14x21 ; 23x14 ; to which I was expecting 2-7 with bleak hopes for white on any sacrifice ,,,certainly Black win. However Garret let me off the hook by playing 6-10 immediately .

Against 8-11 at Diagram , correct play is 26-22 ; 3-8 ; x ; x ; etc to pp draws.

when I played 19-15 I was actually playing the 19th american ty book , and mixed up my lines with the Banks - Levitt game .

Lesson to be learned , ; even if you are sure that you are on book ,, RECHECK , and DOUBLE CHECK !!

Here is loss position Banks -Levitt

Image

Banks has just played 16-20 and Levitt ties him up by 30-26 , DEFINATELY NOT THE SAME POSITION AS OWENS -DOCHERTY.

I just wonder if Hugh was mixed up the same way as I ?

greeting

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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:08 pm

william wrote:Image

At this point Hugh believed reds last move to be a PP loss !! Me too !! So we both played 19-15 ??
Not correct ! Hugh tried another losing possibility here :D 32-28 and lost after 11-16, 19-15, 3-8, 24-19, 14-17 etc. RW

Regards,

Alex
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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby william on Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:26 pm

Ok it's me again , sorry , lol

While on the subject of messy mid-games , My game against Bashim Durdyev , Strong youngster with lots of potential ,

came to mind.

I worked up a plan for a draw , but the plan was not watertight , I missed an important move for my opponent , which he bypassed.

In fact the trouble with plans is that often they do not go according to plan!

Here is position

# 1. Black Docherty White Durdeyev B.

Black to play

Image

A comfortable position for both sides , and logic would say '' for draw go 7-11''.

This was felt by me to be somewhat confining ; so I worked up a plan which in worst event would lead to this ;

White to play

Image

Arising from # 1. via 14-17 ; 21x14 ; 10x17 ; 24-19 15x24 ; 28x19 ; 7-11 ; 22-18 ; 11-16 ; 19-15 ; ( in actual game Bashim played 26-23 ; 17-22 ; 18-15 ; 1-5 ; 15-11 ; 5-9 ; 11-8 ; 9-14 ; 19-15 ; 14-17 ; 8-4 ? the clock was against Bashim , 16-19 ; 23x16 ; 12x19 ; 32-28 ; 2-7 ; 27-24 ; x ; x ; however now I start to play as if the clock is against me ; which it definately was not!!! 19-23 ; 24-20 ; 7-10?????? When you play such a wonderful move as this your heart almost manifests itself on to the board!! 13-9 draw ; however let's get back to plan... ) 17-21 FORMS DIAGRAM ; ( if 6-9 ; 13x6 ; 1x17 ; 26-23 etc was Not my plan ) ; After 17-21 now I am definately threatening 6-9 and back at 14-17 I had calculated for white ; 15-11 ; 21-25 ; 30x21 ;
2-7 ; 11x2 ; 1-5 ; 2x9 ; 5x30 ; 13-9 ; 16-19! ; 32-28 now or later ; 30-26 31x22 ; 12-16 ; 9-6 ; 3-8 etc... to a draw.

However white has the very strong 26-22 Instead of 15-11 and can easily let Black take the shot by 6-9 , white will still hold advantage

If one wants to totally control the situation and the position , then we must see absolutely everything ; which of course is ...impossible


Greetings

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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby william on Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:37 pm

Alex_Moiseyev wrote:
william wrote:Image

At this point Hugh believed reds last move to be a PP loss !! Me too !! So we both played 19-15 ??
Not correct ! Hugh tried another losing possibility here :D 32-28 and lost after 11-16, 19-15, 3-8, 24-19, 14-17 etc. RW

Regards,

Alex



Thank you Alex , I did not see game , only had move run up from shane while walking out ; So nice to know that there are
more possibilities of losing :?
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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby Ingo_Zachos on Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:10 pm

william wrote:Hi Ingo

Sorry I don't understand the language on the page that you sent on last post , what are we to do with this... HELP please!!

Greetings

William Docherty



????
It is a picture of you and Igor Martynov playing in Beijing taken by Tomas Novotny and posted on an FTP-Directory.
I sent the link to that directory to all participants yesterday.
What language do you mean ?

scratch, scratch

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Re: Games in Beijing

Postby Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:31 pm

:D
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